Man o’ War….a “good horse”

Mar 23rd 2012 12:30 pm |

John P. Grier vs. Man O’ War in the 1920 Dwyer Stakes, Aqueduct Race Track. Painting by Frank B. Hoffman

Few questions in horse racing history intrigue me more than the question of who was the greatest American Thoroughbred ever? It is a question far too complex to ever be answered definitively, but it does inspire great conversation.

The conclusion on America’s greatest usually lands on the triumvirate of Secretariat, Citation, and Man o’ War. Living memory, that is people who were alive while a particular horse ran, tends to influence how people divide on this question. The one horse that has outlasted the prejudice of living memory is, of course, Man o’ War.

Perhaps the best evidence of this came in 1999 when he was named the greatest racehorse of the 20th century by the Bloodhorse. No horses in the Bloodhorse’s top ten raced prior to 1940 and only two raced prior to 1950 (Citation and Count Fleet). Needless to say, the top of list overemphasizes the second half of the century with the lone exception of Man o’ War.

The post-mortem ability of Man o’ War to outrun his odds and finish ahead of horses like Secretariat on “racing’s greatest” lists becomes especially intriguing when considering the contemporary opinions of a few race writing powerhouses. Grantland Rice, Walter Vosburgh, and John Hervey — three writers who watched Man o’ War during his career — had opinions about the great race horses that might surprise the modern racing fan.

In Grantland Rice’s outstanding autobiography, The Tumult and the Shouting, he wrote:

“A race horse must be judged in three directions — speed, stamina, and time — the time he lasts. So while we might rate Man o’ War and Citation as the greatest three-year-olds, neither should be classed as the greatest horse. I think that distinction belongs to Exterminator…”

Grantland Rice wrote about many sports so maybe his opinion doesn’t hold as much weight. However, Walter Vosburgh, who spent his entire life in racing and likely watched most (if not all) of Man o’ War’s career races, wouldn’t even go as far as to call him “great.”

According to Walter Vosburgh’s obituary from the New York Times in 1938, he thought Man o’ War a “good horse.” In his long career he only counted three horses as the greatest of the American turf: Sysonsby, Henry of Navarre, and Salvator.

These are opinions of two writers with little in the way of exposition. But, these simple claims are supported by historian John “Salvador” Hervey’s detailed description of why Man o’ War might be undeserving of his status as racing’s greatest.

In a 1924 article for the Daily Racing Form,  he laid out a compelling case against Man o’ War. Making a claim that it was a PR machine (still a relatively new concept in 1924) that created the Man o’ War legend.

Here is an excerpt from his article (read it in its entirety at DRF):

Personally. I have always regarded the reputation of Man o’ War as overblown. To the discriminating, the fulsome, and perfervid [intense] ‘bunk’ and ‘hokum’ that have marked his career, from the publicity standpoint, have prejudiced, rather than elevated, his prestige.

“The deluge of superlatives, the flaming headlines proclaiming him the ‘Wonder Horse of All Time,’ and the like, have nauseated many turfmen well competent to judge of greatness. That he was a marvelous racing machine, and a speed marvel as well, nobody for a moment wishes to deny. But the fact remains, and always will remain, that during his career of conquest he never beat a first-class horse, or one even approaching first-class estate, with the sole exception of Sir Barton…

It is doubtful if any modern American thoroughbred ever excited the enthusiasm, or so appealed to the popular imagination, as did Salvator, until Man o’ War appeared. ‘Publicity’ was, in Salvator’s era, an ‘infant industry’ in comparison with what it has since become. The furor that attended him was neither trumped up nor pumped up. Neither his owner nor his trainer cultivated the ‘fourth estate’ for the purpose of reclame [publicity] and the prestige he attained was a spontaneous emotion, due exclusively to the splendor of his performances.

When we recall the enormous vogue that the ‘movie’ of the Man o’ War-Sir Barton ‘match’ enjoyed, and the great factor it was in making the general public of the United States of America acquainted with him, we realize that Salvator’s fame in his day was but a shadow of what such a horse would today achieve. The Man o’ War-Sir Barton ‘picture’ was absolutely destitute of thrills, because there was not a moment of real contest in it…

An absolutely fascinating observation from a racing writing legend, who came to these conclusions just a few years after Man o’ War concluded his career.

The publicity machine that, according to Hervey, created the perception of Man o’ War’s greatness increased in intensity later when he emerged as a successful sire and became a celebrity in his old age at Faraway Farm in Kentucky. In 1947, the horse’s funeral was broadcast over the radio! That alone would convince anyone that he must be the greatest horse to ever look through a bridle, right?

Of course, one could surmise that Hervey, Rice, and Vosburgh were simply taking the well worn path of the contrarian. However, if we take them at their word, three legendary writers didn’t consider Man o’ War the greatest runner of his era, let alone the greatest of all-time. That is a tough piece of evidence to overlook.

 

SOURCES, NEWS, AND NOTES

“Will Man o’ War Prove a Great Sire,” Daily Racing Form, 18 March 1924

“Walter Vosburgh, Turf Leader, Dies,” New York Times, 12 September 1938

Grantland Rice, The Tumult and the Shouting: My Life in Sport, 1954

Bloodhorse’s Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th Century

John P. Grier vs. Man o’ War in the 1920 Dwyer Stakes

Thanks for reading and good luck!

Filed in thoroughbred racing history



54 Responses to “Man o’ War….a “good horse””

  1. Ron Micetic says:

    Loved this one, Kevin. Especially happy to see Vosburg considered one of my personal favorites, Henry of Navarre on of the three “greatest of the American turf.” Keep up the great work.

  2. ATB says:

    Interesting, as the early 1920′s were the birth of the marketing hype. I always enjoy reading contemporary accounts (written during the time) of famous racers, and realistically, there is a question of “who did he beat?” And the crop was so small, by modern standards. BTW-Man o’ War did not stands at Claiborne (error).
    Love your work!

  3. Kevin says:

    Thanks for the comments and kind words!

    The Claiborne error has been fixed…my mistake.

  4. White Camry says:

    Very interesting, those three contrarian takes on Man o’ War; I especially liked Hervey’s chalking up the MoW hype to the “modern publicity” industry magnified by those new-fangled “movie” pictures. Perfectly valid points and strangely familiar ones, too. ;^)

    I also liked “Salvator” Hervey asking if MoW would prove to be a great sire. It rings of the speculation about what Secretariat would throw (and all too often didn’t.)

    And how many sportswriters in the pre-blog days took their all-time fave’s name as their own pen-name?

    I’d be interested to read of the careers of their own equine heroes. Did Exterminator, Sysonsby, Henry of Navarre or Salvator set new track records as frequently as did Man o’ War? Were their training regimens harder? How did travel affect them?

    For that matter, did any of these sportswriters recall “old racing characters” who could themselves recall long-all-but-forgotten greats like Luke Blackburn? Gen. Duke? Hindoo? Or – dare I say his name – Lexington?

  5. Dorothy Ours says:

    Thanks for posting this — interesting perspectives!

    I think that often it’s hard for us to separate our own feelings from somewhat subjective questions. John Hervey wrote under the pen name “Salvator” — should it surprise us that he may have resented Man o’ War’s fame overtaking Salvator’s? True that there weren’t newsreels in 1890, or a movie of Salvator’s match race with Tenny. But there were superlative newspaper headlines for him (New York Times: “The Best Race Ever Run”), a widely-seen finish line photo, a popular poem, art prints, postcards (“World’s Fastest Running Horse”) — publicity as it existed circa 1890 and years beyond. Whether or not Salvator’s handlers encouraged such celebrations, versions of what Hervey called “hype” did spread the champion’s fame.

    Another perspective: in January 1937, The Blood-Horse magazine began a series of interviews with trainers and jockeys called, “His First Winner, the Best He Ever Saw.” I don’t have every article here but found 17 of them. Within those, there’s a wider range of opinion than modern fans might think: Man o’ War received 7 first place votes, plus one tie with Cavalcade. The next most vaunted horse (among the articles I have here) was Equipoise, with three votes. And now consider this.

    Three Man o’ War votes came from people who might feel an especially strong connection with him: Bill Brennan (handled MoW as a yearling, bringing him to Saratoga for auction); George Conway (Glen Riddle stable foreman during MoW’s racing career); and J. Howard Lewis (longtime friend of MoW’s owner, Sam Riddle). One Equipoise vote came from Fred Hopkins, who trained Equipoise for awhile. But Equipoise’s other trainer, Tom Healy, said that Man o’ War was the best racehorse he ever saw. So did Earl Sande, who had ridden MoW in one race and right afterward compared him to “a runaway locomotive.”

    But the most interesting thing may be Henry McDaniel’s viewpoint. Quote:

    “In his opinion the best horses he trained were Exterminator and *Sun Briar, both of which he trained in one of his three enlistments in the Kilmer colors. He believes Exterminator was the best stayer he ever saw, but thinks *Sun Briar would stay well enough if not made too much use of in the early part of a race. He is firmly of the opinion that Rey del Caredes (Americus), a horse he trained for Lucky Baldwin as a 2-year-old, was the fastest horse he ever had in his charge.
    “He also subscribes to the theory, so widely held, that Man o’ War was the best horse that raced in the past 50 years and that Miss Woodford was the best filly.”

    It may be hard for a sportswriter, no matter how expert, to trump that.
    ; >

  6. Kevin says:

    Hi Dorothy: Thanks so much for your contribution! Certainly a great counterpoint to the quotes that I emphasized. Best, Kevin

  7. Teddy Lopez says:

    I think Kelso was the greatest racehorse of all-tmes and, for many reasons. Alot of people forget to mention the fact the Kelso was a small horse who weighed about 900 ponds and looked like a deer. Being that the great Kelso was a small horse he had shorter than horses like his great grandfather Man of War or Secretariat, who were big horses and had longer legs which is an advantage for the strides. Kelso faced and defeated more great and good horses than both of them put together or than any other racehorse in history. Kelso also set a record on a sloppy track, which Man or War or Secretariat never did or maybe any toher horse ever did, he set a record on dirt and then just 11 days later set a record on grass, which no other horse has ever done! Some people argue that grass is faster than dirt and, when you ask them, how much faster, they tell you about 1 secound faster. Some people will tell you that that’s alot of hoopla because it depends on the condition of the track. There is a thing called turns that always slow horses down in a race, when Secretariat did 2:24 flat for 1 mile and a half on dirt at belmont, he was carrying 126 pounds and did it on 2 turns. Remember Secretariat was a big strong horse so what the hell was 126 pound to him really? Remember he also had longer legs than Kelso, an advantage in covering more ground. Secretariat was 3 when he did this and the only competition he had in that last race of the triple crown was Sham and Sham broke down and then Secretariat had no traffic abhead of him to block him. When Kelso did the 1 mile and a half on grass he was carrying 126 pounds and, did it in 223:4/5 and, mind you did it in 3 turns! Remember, Kelso was a smaller horse than Secretariat and had shorter legs and shorter strides and was covering less ground, Kelso did this againts better competition for it was in the dc international againts the best horse in the world at that time! Kelso was 7 years old when most horses are on their way down. There is a horse called Hawskter, that broke Kelsos’ record for the mile and a half on grass, but here’s the thing, he did it carrying less weight, he was carrying 124 pounds, so to me that record still belongs to the great Kelso. The record for the mile and a half belongs to Kelso on dirt or turf. Just like the rank of the greatest racehorse of all-times belongs to the great King Kellly. There wil never be another Kelso, they don’t even run 2 miles anymore. He holds that record 3 times, in one breaking his own record! Neither Man of War or Secretariat proved all Kelso proved. Kelso didn’t leave no questions unanswered. About the triple crown, which is about the only thin he didn’t get to win. He got a late start but, did win the best 3 year old award and became the first horse ever not to win the triple crown but win the best 3 year old! What might make one think that he didn’t have a chance in hell to win the triole crown had he competed in it? Kelso was the greatest for many reasons, he proved more and beat more great horse than any other horse in history. Long live King Kellys’ memory. Kelso biggest fan, Teddy.

  8. Laura from RI says:

    I agree with Teddy’s post re: Kelso. However, in regards to MOW, he was a “good horse” IMHO. The class of 1920 was sub-standard save for John P. Grier.
    Exterminator was by far the best, even better than MOW. I truly think that MOW was “hopped” when he ran. Feustel knew about it as did SDR.

    Why he didn’t race at four because of Vosburgh’s weight assesment in 1921 was because the horse was beginning to bow tendons.

    Phar Lap will always be higher on my echelon than MOW.

    But then again, if not for MOW we would not have my beloved Seabiscuit.

  9. Ed Bowen says:

    I have often noticed that the age a person his when he/she is struck by a great horse tends the color the opinion through the rest of life. I recall the great Jimmy Kilroe writing about great horses back when I was with The Blood-Horse. He had known Equipoise when he was a young man and seemed still to place him higher that most other historians. The most remarkable instance of thisphenomenon that I know of was in1989 I had the pleasure of interviewing Ogden Phipps. He said he thought the best horse he ever saw was Count Fleet, again thinking back to a horse he watched as a much younger man. I thought it was amazing that the breeder and owner of as great a horse as Buckpasser harked back to somone else’s horse as the best he had seen.

    By the way, your earlier commenter Dorothy Ours modestly omitted that she is the author of the best book ever written about Man o’ War.

  10. Kevin says:

    Hi Ed:

    Thanks so much for your contribution. Also thanks for pointing out that Dorothy Ours is the author of Man O’ War — I agree 100% with your assessment of her book, a must read for any fan of racing history.

    You, sir, modestly omitted your authorship of some great books too! I have copies of Legacies of the Turf and Masters of the Turf close at hand when working on this site.

    Thanks again,
    Kevin

  11. T.J. Connick says:

    The editors of the New York Herald set out a feast on the “eternal question” in their Sunday, March 31, 1907 edition — a couple of months before Colin broke his maiden. Sysonby was the most popular selection among the responding horsemen. Walter Vosburgh awards high praise to Henry of Navarre, but note his preamble:

    I can give my impressions, but cannot venture an opinion, as I know of no way by which can be determined the relative merits of horses which have appeared in different years separated by a long interval. Such an opinion would be of little value, as it is likely to be based upon prejudice, perhaps unconscious, or perchance an impression which is hardly sufficient basis for an opinion.

  12. RG says:

    In 1973 Preston Burch wrote a Foreward for the third printing of his book Training Thoroughbred Horses. It covered the changes in racing from 1902, when he began as a breeder and trainer to 1973. Mentions many of the greats over that period and some of there accomplisments. “Man o’War, the greatest of all time, won 9 out 0f 10 races at two, $83,325;”

    Preston Burch’s opinion I’ll accept.

  13. Totally agree with the distinguished Ed Bowen that Dorothy Our’s book is the best to ever be written on Man o’ War. One of the most scholarly and yet fascinating thoroughbred tomes I’ve had the pleasure to get immersed in.

    Oh yeah, Colin’s Ghost rocks.

  14. ballyfager says:

    Kevin, Always enjoy your posts. Dont ever stop. I started playing in 1959 but I have an older cousin who filled me in on the late Forties and Fifties.

    He said pretty much the same thing about Native Dancer that is being said here about Man O’ War. Native Dancer was the first “television horse” and he was glamourized because of it. But, according to my cousin, they picked their spots carefully with Native Dancer.

    He said Tom Fool, who was more or less a contemporary, was a better horse than Native Dancer.

  15. kathy says:

    I must agree that individuals pick personal favorites for best race horse of all time.

    Personally, probably because I was born in 1950 and my earliest recollections of horse racing was SWAPS.

    So must remind everyone, yes I remember Kelso, great horse

    How does SWAPS figure in for anyone else? Swaps broke his own records.

    Swaps also was being held back from running ALL OUT to protect his problem hoof, there is one small book written about Swaps.

    He will always be my all time stand out because he was my first favorite race horse, and I never SWAP horses in the middle of …

    Someone, anyone if you know about Swaps please post, I read that someone timed Secretriat in the Belmont for a mile and 5/8, which broke Swaps record time for a mile and 5/8ths.

  16. Teddy Lopez says:

    I just wanted to say about that post by Ed Bowen, it’s not just about that one would have favoritism for a certain great horse from ones’ time, you have to have facts to back your horse up. There’s alot of facts to Kelso than just me having been a kid back when he raced. As far as Man of war, who was Kelsos’ great grandfather, you gotta rememberr that way back when he raced, the tracks were in worst conditions, the horse shoes were heavier and, the starting gates, hell, there were no starting gates when Man of war raced and, that all that slowed his timings down. I don’t wanna take anything away from him except that they just didn’t race him too long. I still think Kelso was the best ever. If it wasn’t for Man of war though, there would have been no Kelso. So many great horses came out of Man of war, including his triple crown winning son War admiral, seabiquit. count fleet and even gun bow! Oh again and, there was the great horse that looked like a deer, Kelso.

  17. Dorothy Ours says:

    Thank you, Ed! and Kevin! (blush) Excellent point about people often being struck by a certain horse when they are young. I think because Secretariat was the horse who caught me young, as the ’70s unfolded I didn’t love Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid to the extent that others did — Secretariat already filled that place. Looking back, I appreciate what marvelous horses Slew and Bid were. I’ll just never feel about them quite the way that Secretariat made me feel. And I don’t blame others, coming along at other times, for placing other champions higher. Maybe it’s similar to the way we feel about favorite music we grew up with.

    Enjoyed all the viewpoints in this thread, bringing back many thoughts of terrific horses. By the way, Secretariat’s spark is what made me want to really know the horse people compared and contrasted with him most often. So, thanks to one Red, I also fell in love with another!

  18. Jordan says:

    Interesting opinions, but you seem to forget the myraid of horsemen who were blown away by Man O’ War including: James Rowe Sr. (trainer of Sysonby, Colin, and Hindoo), Willy Knapp (HOF jockey), Earl Sande (HOF jockey), Commander Ross (owner of Sir Barton), Mars Cassidy (race starter), and most of the sports writers of the time.

    Miss Ours, your book was amazing!!! So much hard work and meticulous detail went into it; I don’t even know where to begin. I have a question for you: do you know of anyone who saw both Man O’ War and Secretariat and called Man O’ War the greatest horse of all time? It’s a question I have wondered about for a while.

    Mr. Bowen: thank you for your help in answering my question! I really respect your work, and your book about Man O’ War was also amazing!!!

    Such an honor to be able to communicate with such knowledgable horsemen (and women)!!!

  19. Teddy Lopez says:

    I just want to clear the 1 mile and a half record up. They say secretariat owns the record for the 1 mile and a half on grass, well I got some bad news for the Sec fans, Secretariat did 1 mile and a half on turf which was grass in 2:24 4/5, king kelly[kelso] did the 1 mile and a half on grass in 2:23 4/5 and he did it on 3 turns and was carrying 126 pounds and, mind you all it was againts way better competition than secretariat had when he did it. It was at the dc international, a race in which he had participated in 4 times againts the best darn horses in the whole world and not just in america and, he came out 2nd 3 times and, finally won the last one beating out gun bow by 5 lengths who was no slouch and, was related to him, and setting that record at the age of 7 when most horses are on their way down and out! You could go on and on about kelso, I hope the people that don’t know this one are sitting down. Ok, here it goes, are you sitting down? Only 9 horses have won the jockey gold cup twice in its’ 87 year history, are you sitting down, the great kelso did it 5 times! Oh, and, it was 5 years in a row, in which he won horse of the year 5 times and became the only horse to ever do that! Remember, kelso was a little horse who looked like a deer who had to be gelded because of his behavior and that even after they gelded him he still wasn’t the nicest horse! There’s never been a horse like kelso and there never will be, kelso beat younger horses, older horses and, could sprint go the distance, where he holds the 2 mile record 3 times, in the last one breaking his own record! You could say, kelso was ahead of his time[laugh]! It is safe to say that kelso beat more great horse and good horse than any other racehorse of all-times. That alone makes a case for his being the greatest racehorse of all-times. Somebody said they oughta make a movie about him. Once upon a time there was a horse named ‘kelso’ but, only once. Kelso biggest fan.

  20. Teddy Lopez says:

    Just want to say for Kelso, that they put Kelso againts his greatgrandfather, Man of war in a computor simulated race and, they got the great Kelso beating his greatgrandfather by half a lengh. Eddie Arcaro who wrote both Citation and Kelso said Kelso was the greatest horse he ever rode. So they better start changing that Blood horse top 4 list. Oh, and, you know how I feel about secretariat, secretariat lost 5 races never carrying more than 126 pounds, and prove out kicked his butt fair and, square giving away 7 pounds to sec, they never raced prove out again. Kelso should top that blood horse top 100 list as the greatest racehorse of all-times. I have more respect for Dr. Fager than for secretariat. Look at the weight Fager carried setting some records. Forego is also a horse I have alot of respects for cause he was hurt most of his carear. Prove out could have been one of the true greats but, was hurt alot. He has the secound fastest two miles after the great kelso. Those who think prove out was a fluke should look up his story and bio. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  21. Randy Scarbrough says:

    Gee Teddy I want to think you for your post about Kelso. Are you aware that Eddie Arcaro one of Kelso rider said in a interview with Bill Christine that he rated Secretariat the best he has ever seen? He told Ron Turcotte that and has on other occassions said Secretariat was the fastest horse he ever seen and that goes back to Phar Lap.I wonder who were the other old time turfmen who told Arcaro that every one he talked to that seen both Man 0′ War and Secretariat said Secretariat better. This is what he said according to Turcotte. I don’t guess Secretariat or Man 0′ War did the things Kelso did but guess you can’t if you don’t run after 3yrs. of age. Thats a no brainer I would think. Remember Kelso broke most of his records as a older horse. Didn’t Hatton, Hudges, Casale, Hamburger Schwartz and George Cassidy placed Secretariat better than Man 0′ War and Kelso. These turfmen seen them all. Other than that you posted a Hummdiggner.

  22. Big Red's Shadow says:

    Oh brother. A lot of people have resentments. I am sure the Secretariat hypers are resentful of Curlin, or Seattle Slew. They are about Man O’ War. Just like Salvator’s fans were resentful of Man O’ War. Man O’ War was the greatest horse on American turf..period. He did everything ever asked of him and he did in a way no horse ever has. Ready Ms. Dorothys book if you want proof.
    If people want to bring up Exterminator great do it. Why on earth did Exterminators owner DODGE the Kenilworth Gold Cup when both Red and Sir Barton were going to be there? Kilmer was invited to bring Exterminator to that show and he ran from it. THink about it.
    If you want to bring up phony Red aka Secretariat do it. That horse was a great one but greatest? He lost four races he should have won. He never carried the weight Man O’ War did as a two year old and the fact he lost easily won races proves he wasn’t as good. How does he get beat by a horse named Onion? Prove Out? his maiden when he came in fourth and was disqualified for interference in the Champange stakes. Man O’ War? Lost one…questionable loss.
    When Red ran he wore iron plates instead of aluminium shoes, the tracks were slower than they were in the fifties and sixties and today and of course can anyone here imagine a two year old carrying 130 pounds now days? Man O’ War’s only failing was the selfishness of his owner as far as breeding rights. The only horse we have now with a direct male line back to Big Red is Tiznow and thats too bad. Man O’ War descendents have proved to be fast, durable and athletic.
    Citation was a better horse than the ones running now days. Native Dancer was to. We had better horses back then. But anyone putting Secretariat whom I have questions about as far as steroids goes ahead of Man O” War is a fool. The horse died of a disease that horses get from periodic steroid use. How does an animal never hurt, never unsound a day in his life get laminitus? Think about it.

  23. Teddy Lopez says:

    Gee, Randy, Eddie Arcaro also said kelso was the best horse at any age, so where the hell are we? Go read Jim Squires’ book on how secretariat was juiced up on steroids. I’ll name the steriod for you, ‘lasic’. Look at all the weight kelso carried for a horse that looked like a deer! Man of war was better than secretariat. Go look at for example how they say sec broke man of wars’ record for the 1 mile and 1/16. The jive turkeys don’t tell you that man of war was carrying 138 pounds to secretariats’ 126 pounds , man of war did 2 secounds slower. You think 12 pounds don’t matter? The tracks were in worst conditions when man of war raced and the horse shoes were made of steel compared to aluminim when secretariat raced and, there were noi starting gates when mow raced. Secretariat is not the greatest racehorse of all-times. That’s between Man or war and his great grandson Kelso. They put kelso in a computor race with mow and they had kelso winning by half a length. I’s a tuff comparison I think. Kelso was mind boggling for a horse that looked like a deer. Look at when he set a record on dirt for 2 miles on a sloppy track then set a record on grass in the dc againts the best horses in the world, just 11 days later. Where the hell is secretariat there? Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  24. Liz L. says:

    Lasix is not a steroid. It is a diuretic used to prevent bleeding from the nostrils during a race when blood pressure increases. For horses that suffer from this, it can be quite debilitating to good performance. There is absolutely no evidence that Secretariat ever used Lasix, or suffered from bleeding. Lasix was tested for at most tracks at which he raced. Furthermore, bleeding tends to be an heritable trait, and no evidence any of his offspring (or predecessors) were bleeders.

    I enjoyed most of the comments here as very informative, and providing interesting counterpoints, one to another! I tend to agree with the comments that we see the most merit in the horses with whom we have some sort of compelling connection.

    I wanted to share a little experiment I have conducted, where I sought to find out what the actual benefit to modern day horses is from track improvements, if there is any. I thought that if there were a real benefit from track improvements, we should see a relatively shallow slope (time/year) on one side of the improvement, a relatively shallow slope on the other side of the improvement, and a precipitous drop when we get to the year of the improvement. Since individual horses times can vary so much year to year, I averaged each decade’s worth of times, and chose stakes races that stayed on the same track, attracted the same grade of horses, were run for many decades and did not change distance within those many decades. Even with decades averaged, if there were a significant benefit to track improvements, there should still be a shallow slope on one side of the improvements, a shallow slope on the other, and an obvious drop correlating to the decade of the improvement. What I found, instead, was a fairly consistent decrease in slope w.r.t. time before and after track improvements. It is not at all obvious to me that track improvements have done anything more than improve “off” conditions, i.e., give us fewer “off” days and off tracks that are easier to run on. It seems fast tracks are quite comparable.

    Thank you so much for your forum!

  25. Teddy Lopez says:

    Hey, Liz, what makes you think secretariat wasn’t juiced up as hell with that big appetite he had and, how he died at a young age for a horse, at 19 and, he died of laminitis which a desease horses on roids die of? Why the hell when they compare the records secretariat broke of man of war, they don’t mention the weight they were carrying? It’s alot of bullcrap to me. Like when man of war did the 1 mile and 1/16 he was carrying 138 pounds and, was wearing iron shoes which would slow him down, compared to secretariat who wore aluminum shoes, the tracks were in worst conditions back in man of wars’ time and there were no starting gates. Secretariat was carrying no more than 126 pounds, that’s 12 pounds less, the hell, 12 pounds don’t matter? Secretariat did it about 2 secounds faster, now if you take all the disadvantages man of war had, who was the real better horse? Who you kidding, man? Now let’s take that the stuff secretariat was on, if man of war was on any roids at all, it wasn’t the crap secretariat was on. Oh, and, kelso looked like a deer, so if kelso was on the juice at all, he sure didn’t darn look it. I f prove out holds the secound fastest 2 miles aftet the great kelso, what makes you think kelso wouldn’t have whupped secretariats’ behind if prove out did. Oh and, I’m not gonna let you forget prove out was carrying 7 pounds more than secretariat. Look what happened to big brown when they took him off the roids. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it now? Oh, and, as far as secretariats’ big heart, what happened to the big heart when he got his butt kicked 5 times? Excuses, excuses right? Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  26. Liz L. says:

    Hi Teddy. “Juicing” is very doubtful. If you look at pictures of Secretariat from babyhood on, he had a lot of muscle and a very thick neck. Look at pictures of Bold Lad (another Bold Ruler) as a two year old, and there are many anatomical and muscular similarities. Giving anabolic steroids to a foal is practically a formula for disaster, and the most determined cheater would certainly avoid it. There is absolutely no connection between “juicing” and laminitis. I am not sure who has been telling you that. Furthermore, Secretariat developed laminitis at age 19, 16 years after he retired. That dog won’t hunt. What is far more likely is insulin resistance, a condition prevalent in humans, dogs and horses, but not well-known until recently. Secretariat had gained weight toward the end of his life, and this was likely the cause of his laminitis.

    Your arguments about the heavier shoes and the slower tracks are simply not borne out by the data. There is no dramatic decrease in race times from one decade to the next, rather a steady, consistent drop from decade to decade (until recently, when they have actually started to get slower again). If the faster times now are due to faster tracks and better shoes, then why were times during Man O’ War’s day faster than they were the decade before he ran? And why are average times now slower than they were in the 70′s and 80′s? Did the tracks get slower again? Perhaps the shoes or saddles are heavier now? I, personally, think Man O’ War and Kelso were great horses. It would be foolish to argue against that! But please don’t make baseless accusations against Secretariat, because he was also a great horse, and Kelso doesn’t need you to sully Secretariat’s image.

    • Jordan Nichols says:

      Liz-

      It seems as if your argument is based on the assumption that at the beginning of every decade, tracks dramatically improved. That simply isn’t the case. Tracks are improved more often than you would think. You asked why times improved from the time of horses like Domino and Luke Blackburn to Man o’ War’s time; the answer is tracks were being improved (read Dorothy Ours’s book). When you make instead this assumption, your findings aren’t so surprising. And I’m sure even you will agree that tracks were a heck of a lot faster in the 60′s and 70′s than in the 20′s.

      • Liz L. says:

        I think the biggest problem for local municipalities and for racetracks to deal with is, and has been, water! Most of the improvements in tracks have to do with new ways to improve drainage. At the same time, the maintenance staff and course designer have to achieve a delicate balance between too much and too little water. Too much and you have a sloppy mess, too little and your valuable track surface blows away, possibly into spectators’, horses’ and jockeys’ eyes and lungs. The drainage will be in the substrate layers, mostly, but it is also important to find a surface composition that will resist clumping, yet still provide firm footing for the horses. It is not unreasonable for you, or anyone else, to think that there is ongoing “tweaking” of the composition of the running surface. I’m sure that maintenance is also different in dry climates in AZ and CA, compared to the more humid Eastern tracks. The process of sealing wet tracks is a relatively new one, also. It is most important, in any attempt to compare times from earlier eras to the present day, to throw out anything but “fast” tracks for comparison. Even a “good” 1920′s (or 1940′s) track would most likely be quite a bit heavier, yielding much slower times. Of course as you doubtless know, not all fast tracks are created equal, but it is quite likely that temperature, humidity and wind play a major role in variant differences from race to race.
        I would like to amend my earlier statement, because I lumped shoes in with track surfaces. I believe the change in plate composition is responsible for a certain percentage of the improvement in times. I believe it is a negligible difference in sprint races, but becomes increasingly significant over a mile.
        But to answer your question, no, I don’t think the tracks are significantly faster now, if we compare “fast” tracks and with similar weather conditions.
        I will give you one example why (but there are others). Man O’ War’s more-than-half brother, Mad Hatter, was a very talented horse, to be sure. In 1921 and 1922 he won consecutive Jockey Club Gold Cups, the first two years it was run at two miles. His very creditable times were 3:22.40 (1921) and 3:22.60. These were already very good times. If we were to credit him with a 2 second per mile plate and track allowance (the minimum I have heard proffered by advocates of such allowances), this would give him two consecutive runnings at 3:18.+ by modern era standards. The great Kelso, two of five times, was able to run under 3:20, but was over 3:19.0 both of those times. In the 1922 JCGC, Mad Hatter defeated Pillory and the filly Bit O’White by two lengths. This would mean that not only did Mad Hatter run an adjusted faster JCGC than Kelso (both times!), but Pillory and Bit O’White also ran adjusted faster times than Kelso. As did Reigh Count and Chance Play. And probably Twenty Grand and Market Wise. Now I am not trying to disrespect the horses I just listed. They were all very talented horses. But in all my years reading about, watching and studying Thoroughbreds, I never once head an oldtimer mention any of those horses in the same breath with Kelso. Market Wise’s 3:20.8 was already fantastic. Do we really think it should be adjusted to a 3:17?

        • Liz L. says:

          Jordan, obviously comparing times is a very complicated task, and I don’t pretend to have addressed all or most of the isssues. And one thing I would say for sure is that synthetic tracks are definitely faster than their natural counterparts. In the example I used above of the JCGC, we do still need to give Mad Hatter a plate allowance in order to get a sense of a time for him in the modern era. This would be somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds for the 2 miles. So adjusted for plates, Mad Hatter runs between 3:20.4 and 3:21.4 for his faster JCGC. Also what needs to be taken into account is the frequency of races. Horses in the early 20th century tended to race much more frequently, and so races were often more tactical and less pure demonstrations of the horses’ abilities. But I do believe, after looking at a lot of this, that the biggest influence in the change in running times has to do with introducing some fantastic European stallion lines to the best of the American lines in the early to mid 20th century.

  27. lorraine says:

    What purpose did Colin achieve here? What was the point? Was he thinking EVERYONE would say oh yea, Man O’ War was like okay but Secretariat was Horse of the Century or something? Colin didn’t get that. And, while I’m late to the party, I really enjoyed reading the comments. Finally, people are fair. Finally I see that people actually think there are horses greater than Secretariat. But, as a person who feels Man O’ War is the greatest, let me just say that all the points from the Man O’ War fans were valid and appreciated. Let’s look at Man O’ War vs other horses. There is a lot of talk about starting gates and slower tracks and heavier shoes, all valid points, however, Man O’ War DID carry 130 pounds at 2 UNHEARD of in later years. Man O’ War didn’t have the competition of Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, but he did run against stakes horses, horses that beat greats of the past. Man O’ War did NOT duck Exterminator as someone pointed out AND, now Secretariat fans brace yourselfs, Man O’ War won all but 2 races EASILY, Under STOUT pulls, handily, etc., never RIDDEN OUT like Secretariat. He carried weight at 3, Secretariat did not, except for the 126 pounds that all 3 year olds have to carry at times. Every argument Secretariat fans make, can be used to describe other horses. I also think Count Fleet was the 2nd best horse. If Count Fleet had been “ridden out” for a record, think of how much faster his Belmont would have been. His last quarter was faster according to the DRF chart and what’s the deal with 25 lengths being ho hum and 31 lengths being the second coming? Let me quote an article I read “The racing king of the present season is Man O’ War the great 3 year old who makes a specialty of breaking all previous records. So far ahead of all other horses is he that it can almost be said “there is no second”. None of his competition has been able to make him extend himself and it is still a question as to how fast he really could run if he were hard pressed. Okay, John P. Grier, Secretariat lost to Prove Out! Which brings up another point Man O’ War smashed records and EIGHT of them altogether. Oh, there is so much I could continue with, but I think without a doubt, Man O’ War is the Horse of the Century, deservingly so.

  28. lorraine says:

    Since I won’t be the only one leaving more than one message (and it was a privilege to actually read a comment from Mr. Bowen) let me just say that Secretariat fans LOVE to talk about the people that saw both Man O ‘War (the first Big Red and didn’t take any other horses nickname) and Secretariat and say that Secretariat was better, well there are some that think Man O ‘War is better. I love when they forget to admit that in their articles. Plus Man O ‘War’s record at SARATOGA WAS better. But, Secretariat gets the better race record accolades because he was so purdy and popular.

  29. Teddy Lopez says:

    Tell the secretariat fans to mention how much weight secretariat was carrying in comparison to man of war. They won’t do that. Man of war was one hell of a horse. To me it’s between man of war and his great grandson kelso of who is the greatest racehorse of all-times. Yo wanna really get the secretariat fans, tell them to compare secretariats’ belmont victory when he was competting againts one really good horse sham, who broke down, and two horse who were really bums compared to all-time greats. Tell them to go look at kelsos’ 1964 dc performance which is againts the best freakin horses in the world and, how he st the record at 2:23 4/5 in three turns and, how just 11 days before that he broke his own record for the 2 miles ‘on a slopy track’!!! Oh kelso was 7 years old when he did that. Talk about a freak horse! Man, we’re never gonna see another horse like kelso again. These horses today don’t even run 2 miles anymore. They don’t carry all that weight anymore neither. Kelso proved it all. When he became only the 4th horse to win the handicapp triple crown he was giving away 20 pounds to the runner up! Oh, yah right, secretariat wasn’t on roids. Atleast kelso looked like a damn deer and, he was still carrying all that weight for a little horse. 13 of the 30 or 31 stake races he won, kelso was giving away 17 pounds to the runner up! My, God what kind of horse was this? Greatest horse is between kelso and his great grandfather man of war. It’s hard to argue againts kelso with all he did. Just that kelso beat more great and good horses than any other racehorse of all-times, makes him one hell of a candidate for the greatest racehorse of all-tmes. He also ended up secound three years in a row and finally won which again is againts the best horse in the world! Yes isn’t kelso scary. You have to be sitting down to digest some of kelsos’ heroics. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  30. Liz L. says:

    Teddy Kelso was a great horse, but it is comparing apples to oranges to compare him and Secretariat, IMO. Comparing 2 year old and 3 year old Secretariat to 2 & 3 year old Kelso, Secretariat is the winner, hands down. And there is no point in comparing the 4,5,or 6 year old Kelso to 3 year old Secretariat. Kelso was a great horse. Secretariat was a great horse.

    The whole steroid thing is really reaching on your part. For one thing, Jim Squires is hardly a reputable source. He offers no proof, and only wishes to enhance his own reputation by tearing down others. I have a Thoroughbred gelding who has been retired for a year and a half, absolutely no drugs entering his system, and he eats, well, like a horse. You really think that a horse having a hefty appetite is proof of steroid use? I wonder where that expression came from, anyway. Must have been all of the horses were juicing way back when, hmmm? And when all is said and done about steroids, Penn State actually conducted a study that found absolutely NO benefit to horses’ performance in giving them anabolic steroids. It did change their personalities (they became more aggressive), which made their owners think they were improved, but their muscle fibers and actual performances were unchanged.

    If you believe Kelso to be best, be confident in that. No need to sling mud.

  31. Robb says:

    Man O War’s steady 28ft. stride has yet to be matched. And the line that he was never matched with great horses? Nobody would LET their horses race him, fearing embarrassment. Those who know the facts know the horse, and the truth.

  32. Teddy Lopez says:

    Hey Liz, I got some bad news for you, as far as the great kelso whenn he started as a 2 year old, the great Eddie Arcaro said that he held him back quite a few times so that he wouldn’t win the races he won, by more lengths. If you give me you’re e-mail address I’ll send you the video where Eddie says it straight out. So kelso would have had an even better 2 year old season. As a 3 year old he didn’t participate in the triple crown cause he got a late start cause he was hurt, yet, he had one hell of a 3 year old season and, became the first horse in a whole lot of years not to win the triple crown but, be voted best 3 year old. What makes people think he would not have won the triple crown when he also beat one of the horse that had won one of those triple crown races. What makes you think the great kelso had no chance in hell to win the triple crown. He did become only the fourth horse to win the handicapp triple crown and, did it giving away 20 pounds to the runner up! Make sure you’re sitting down, then again, don’t fall out of your seat. What’s the most weight secretariat ever gave away to any runner up or the other horses? He lost 4 races as it was and, he wasn’t giving away much weight to the other horses. Again when prove up whupped his butt, prove out was giving 7 pounds away to secretariat. People say secretariat wasn’t prepared for that race that i was soppose to be secretariats’ stable mate riva ridge, whom prove alo beat, but, I’ve talked to the representive for Penny Chenery and, secretariat and, he admits prove out beat secretariat fair and ,square. No fluke horse prove out, he holds the secound fastest two miles after the great kelso, by the way, the great kelso set the record 3 times and, broke his own record the last time, on a sloppy track which had running water, mind you! Prove out also beat 4 hall of famers, including secretariats stable mate riva ridge. The problem with prove out was he tended to get distracted and look to the sides for which Allen Jerkins came up with those things they put so they won’t look to the sides. Prove out also tended to side track. Prove out also got hurt alot, or you better believe he would have gone down as one of the greatest race horses ever. Secretariat never raced him again. Dick Jenkins who I had the privelege to speak to on the phone a few times and, worked with the great kelso told me the secretariat people avoided him like the plague. Now if prove out beat secretariat what makes you think the great kelso didn’t have a chance in hell of whupping secretariat? I’m still trying to find if any horse ever beat the great kelso at equal weight. I doubt if any horse ever beat the great kelso if kelso if the horse was giving away weight to the great kelso, I really do. As far as secretariat not being juiced up, you think his people are gonna admit to that? As a matter of fact secretariat hasn’t been the only horse to ever be juiced up. If the great kelso was juiced up atall he sure didn’t damn look it. Kelso looked like a deer and, yet he was carrying all that weight for a little horse. Oh and, remember, when kelso won that dc in 1964 which was againts the best horses in the whole world and, not just a good horse and two bums, he did it on 3 turns, did 223 4/5 for 1 mile and , a half and, he did the last quater faster than the first quater! He ended up 2nd the other 3 times he participated in this maximum race of races. 11 days before that he had set the record for the jockey gold cup at 2 miles, again, that was on a sloppy track! Oh and, man of war was a great horse, why don’t they mention the weight they were carrying when they compare man of war and, secretariat? Who the hell are they kidding, man? Man of war was carrying more weight. They cover that up. Greatest horse is between the great kelso and, his great grandfather man of war. Oh, and, if man of war was on any thing, it wasn’t that crap secretariat was on 60 years later, and, you better believe the tracks were in worst condition back when mano raced and, he wore iron shoes and, their were no starting gates. I’ll nevr forget that Dick Jenkins told me thaat secretariat never would have done what he did at belmont, with kelso. He would have had to pace himslelf cause the great little horse that looked like a deer would have been breathing down his throat. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  33. Liz L. says:

    Teddy, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. My point is, you can’t compare the two horses’ records because of the differences in when they ran in their lifetimes, not anything that was under either one of the horses’ control! I bet Kelso would have won the TC if he had been able to compete in them, just like I bet that Secretariat would have won both the Whitney and the Woodward if he hadn’t had that virus to contend with for the month of July. Prove Out did beat Secretariat fair and square in that race, and he (PO) ran a great race in the slop, and he was the second fastest horse to win the Jockey Club Gold Cup. He was a tremendously underrated horse, but Jerkens knew just what to do to get his best out of him that Fall of ’73 (just like he knew how to get the best out of Beau Purple). But as Steve Haskins wrote about that Woodward, if there was ever a candidate for a “bounce” performance, Secretariat’s Woodward was it. Still, Secretariat didn’t run a terrible race, he just got second that day. On the outside the whole race, in the slop, he still ran a very respectable 2:26.40. You can see he just gets tired at the end, as Turcotte reported at the time. I really believe he was still recovering from his training disruption due to the virus. I know other horses have had to deal with things like this, too, so I don’t make excuses, but I think it is a very likely explanation.

    I know that a lot of horses have “juiced,” but for one thing, I think it is far more prevalent today. In fact I read that there is a correlation between early steroid use and broken bones. The steroids don’t allow the growing horse to grow bones with as much density, so they are more prone to breaks as they get older and heavier. Steroids are popular in younger horses now for their (the horses’) sales appeal, but they pretty much ruin them for racing! When it comes right down to it, neither you nor I will know the truth of it. I also know that there were a few disenfranchised folks from the Meadow camp who would have been prime sources for that kind of dirt, if they had it to spread. So my inclination is to say that it is unlikely. Why, for instance, Secretariat and not Riva Ridge? RR would have been a prime candidate, as he tailed off (no pun intended) from his TC form fairly dramatically the second half of his 3YO season.

    As far as the weight goes, that’s kind of like the TC for Kelso. The most weight Secretariat gave to opponents, that I know of, was 9 lbs. in the Gotham to Champagne Charlie. I agree, it was nothing compared to what Kelso gave his opponents, or MOW for that matter. However, I also think that, in general, Secretariat faced a much higher caliber of opponent than MOW, and he ran in primarily weight for age races the latter part of his career. I wish we could have seen a 4YO season from him. I believe he could have carried the weight (his father certainly could), but it’s all speculation, just like Kelso’s 3YO Triple Crown.

    I don’t hate Kelso, or resent his greatness. Far from it. I also love what a great example he was of the lives Thoroughbreds can lead after retirement from racing. After all of the amazing things he did on the track, he was quite the show jumper! He’s a great one to have as a favorite, Teddy. Best to you.

  34. Teddy Lopez says:

    Hey, Liz, when beau purple beat kelso 3 times, what a coincidence that it was Willie Shoemaker that was in kelsos’ saddle. Oh, and, Willie is one of the very best jockeys of all-times but, it looks like kelso didn’ like Willie much. Kelso was a moody horse, if he didn’t like somebody he was real rude, that’s why kelso was gelded to begin with. They say even after that he was never really a nice horse[laugh]! One of those 3 races beau purple won, kelso was giving away 7 pounds to him, so you know what I think of that. Kelso finally did beat him and, it’s obvious Mrs. Dupont[kelsos' owner] was not ever ducking beau purple. Funny, when Valenzuela came in to replace Shoemaker, kelso started his winning ways again. The great Eddie Arcaro who was almost unbeatable with kelso, told Valenzuela not to rush kelso. Another thing about kelso is that being he was gelded to calm him down, that would have taken away tetostorone from him, has to do withh libido and, will,and, would make him more of a winning horse. Oh and, being that he was never a nice horse and, horses have to be obidient to do well, imagine had kelso had a better temper!Even from the very beginning, since he was such a small colt, other than that he was man of wars’ great grandson and, was also related to war admiral who was his grandfather and was a triple crown winner and, that kelso was also related to count fleet and, seabisquit, nobody really though he would really be a real great horse,never mind the phenomenon he became. It’s such an amazing, mind blowing story his story, that when the fans wanted to see him again, they brought him back to belmont alongside forego, and, you guessed it, kelso was 26 and, forego was 13 and, there were people who said kelso still looked as young as forego. That to me really sums up Kelso he was really a freak no doubt. All respects to the man of war fan, and, I have nothing but the greatest respects for kelsos’ great grandfather but, they put kelso in a computor simulation race with mano and, they had kelso winning by half a length. I don’t wanna take anything away from man of war, but, he was a bigger horse than kelso and, had longer legs but, man of war had so many disadvantages. Eddie Arcaro said when asked who was better kelso or citation said straight out that kelso would have beaten the crap out of citation. He said that at the beggining he would hold kelso back many times so that they wouldn’t have put even more weight on him. Some say as it is who knows had they not had to put all that weight on him. I really think Eddie Arcaro was perfect for kelso and, it’s not just aboout a great horse, it takes a great jockey to be in the saddle. Oh, and, kelso had to have a liking to him[laugh]! The real amazing thing about kelso was how for a little horse who looked like a deer still was able to carry all that weight and, be so great. He was one hell of a racehorse. I was a kid when those kelso-gunbow wars. It was like the ali-frazier fights. Gun bow who by the way was related to kelso was 2 years younger than him, he beat kelso twice and kelso beat him 3 times but, remember Liz, Kelso did give away pounds to gun bow in those two races he lost to him. Gun bow was a great horse, not taking anything away from him. So many great horses came out of man of war, including the little horse that looked like a deer. Too bad we never saw what would have come out of kelso, then again, he never would have left us all those great memories. It’s like some great critic said ‘once upon a time there was a horse named kelso but, only once. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  35. Teddy Lopez says:

    As far as jockey gold cup timings, when the great kelso time 3:19 1/5 he did that on a sloppy track, you darn well know he would have done that even faster had that not been a sloppy track, that’s common sense right? Right. That;s still better than citations’ 3:21 something and, foregos’ 3:21 something. Now let me know if any of these other horses did their jockey gold cup timings after having won the dc which is againts the best horses in the world in a timing of 2:23 4/5 on 3 turns, setting a record doing so and, just 11 days before breaking his own record at the jockey gold cup. Yah, kelso is a tremendous candidate for being the greatest racehorse of all-times, isn’t he now? As far as lasix, lasix is an uphead also, It is a stimulant. There’s a guy called Kelso Sturgeon, coincidence, his first name is Kelso! This is a fella who was a trainer, jockey, handicapper and all. Go read what he had the guts to come out and, write a whole book about! Go read more about ‘lasix’. Best to you, Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  36. Teddy Lopez says:

    Liz, I’ve got more bad news for you, go read the article by Eric Mitchell of the bloodhorse where he talks about Lasix and, how sciencetists have said it is a perfomance enhancement drug. Ofcaurse the secretariat people or fans are never gonna admit he was on something or the other. It’s not good for them to admit so. I’m not saying prove out might not have been on something or other horses from that era. If kelso was on anything, that poor horse looked like a damn deer, man. He also had a 25 ft stride cause he was a smaller horse than secretariat, man of war of forego who was 17 hands which meant kelso was covering less ground when he strode than those big horses and, yet look at kelsos’ timings! Secretariat could have face prove out in the jockey gold cup which was more important than his proving he could win on grass. He could have had one or two more races on grass after that. They ducked prove out like the plague. Funny prove out holds the secound fastest 2 miles for the jockey gold cut ever, after ‘KING KELLY’, the great kelso. Maybe secretariat would have held the secound fastest two miles ever for the jockey gold cup or would he? Maybe he would have had a chance to break the great kelsos’ record of 3:19 1/5 which kelso did on a sloppy track or he would have done even faster, or would have secretariat broken the great kelsos’ record? Maybe they just plain chickened out. Oh and, kelso is the only horse to win the jockey gold cup 5 times in it’s 87 year history, which only 9 horse have won 2 times! Kelso’s the only one to do so 5 times and, just 11 days later set a record at the dc, which is againts the best horses in the world and not just in the u.s, or againts one really good horse and two bums like secretariat had at belmont. Oh and, sham broke down remember? Sham also hit his head againts the gate in the kentucky derby that year in 73′ and, tore out two teeth and, was bleeding and , still lost by just half a lengh to secretariat. Yah, but they won’t tell you that, they make up all kinds of excuses for secretariat though. Such hipocrisy, man! They ducked prove out like the plague. They knew better. Prove out beat 4 hall of famers and, Allen Jerkins was training him running 3 miles! Sure seems ike they ducked prove out. Kelso didn’t ducked any horse, they probably ducked kelso. Oh, and, nobody wanted to race againts kelsos’ great grandfather anymore, man of war. There were many that ducked man of war and, yet some numbskulls have the guts to say man of war didn’t have really much competition! Who they freakin kidding? Best to you Liz, kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

    • Randy Scaroborough says:

      Gee Teddy. Here is the bad news for you my good man. First Your sources from a NASCAR announcer gets pretty bad. Is that as good as you can do?? Have you ever read the comments about Secretariat from Charles Hatton who seen Man 0′ War & even lived with him? He was Hatton most prized horse until the greatest came along in the name of Secrtetariat. Did you know Hollie Hughes the horse trainer that saddled George Smith in 1916? Did you know he said Secretariat was far better & done more than Man 0′ War? Shorty Archer seen both & said the same. How about Rose Hamburger, George Cassidy, Mike Casale and Gene Schwartz who all said Secretariat the better. Gee Teddy, I know you cannot except Eddie Arcaro telling Bill Christine he thought Citation & Kelso the best horses he ever rode and that Secretariat was the best he ever seen but you gotta get over it. He also told that to Laurin & Turcotte. How about comparing Secretariat carrying the same weight as Man 0′ War. Guess you found out he blew Man 0′ War away. How about the only 1 1/2 mile race ever ran by Man 0′ War carrying only 118 lbs in a time of 1:28 4/5. Notice all the times Man 0′ War ran when he did carry high weight. Wasn’t to fast compared when Fager & Secretariat ran did they. Fager at 134 lbs 1:32 1/5 vs. MOW at 135 lbs in 1:41 & change. Gee Wheezeeeee What would Man 0′ War times or any horse times on dirt be if they ran the pace Secretariat did in his Belmont? Also I guess you read were Eddy Acaro said Secretariat was the fastest horse he ever seen. So we all know where we are now don’t we. We are at the point were we all can say you TEDDY are a Secrtetariart HATER from the get go. Telling the TRUTH aren’t I Teddy good old boy?? But we forgive you. Have to ever read Secrtetariat’s pat performances in his workouts Teddy boy?? Seen were this HOSS ran a mile in 1:34 flat in MUD & was pulled up a entire furlong clocked in 1:47 4/5. Heck man that blows MOW away when he ran the Dwyer ridden hard 1:49 1/5 & the track was rated FAST.. Before he was 3 he ran the 3/8 furlong in 32 2/5 seconds a world record at the time. WOW Did you know they redone the race track at Saratoga in Aug. 1919 & Belmont Park in June 1920 soely to make the track faster?? It was so fast they nickname it the rubber track and many, many records fell. Source Dorothy Ours book. Sorry to say you lose alll the way round Teddy Boy. I really feel sorry for you. I really do. Kelso was a great horse but not at 3 If he is your pick at it seems well do but one thing for sure your not much of a FACT man Ken Squire. Hahahaha

  37. Teddy Lopez says:

    No, on the contrary, I feel sorry for you. I forgot to mention that kelso making just 16 hands as an adult had a stride of 25ft which is shorter than his great grandfather man of wars’ which was 28ft they say, secretariat also had a bigger stride than kelso also being a big horse like man of war. What does this mean, Randy? Common sense tells you man of war and, secretariat were covering more ground when they ran than kelso did. For instance, man of war having a stride of 28ft was covering 3 more feet than the great keso when he strode, yet look at kelsos’ timings. Same as secretariat was covering more ground. Secretariat was a juiced up horse, go read Eric Mitchells’ article about that sciencetists have said lasix is a performance enhanchment drug. Yah, Eric Mitchell is just saying that just for the hell of writing something, yah right. Look what happened to big brown when they took him of the juice. Go look at how sham hit his head againts the gate in the kentucky derby race that year againts secretariat and, tore out two teeth and, was bleeding and, how he might have atleast tied for that race. They make up all kinds of excuses for secretariat but, they won’t mention facts like sham at the kentucy derby race thing. When sham broke down at the belmont, his owner took quite a while to say what ahd happened to sham. That’s a big spookly to me, man. No I don’t hate secretariat, but I don’t even put him in the top 5 greatest race horses of all-times for many reasons. As far as what he would have done at 4 or had he gone on. Yah, I would have like to seen him with alot omore than 126 pounds and, giving away weight to other horses. He lost giving away 7 pounds but, they make excuses for it. Why talk all that crap that secretriat could’ve really beaten prove out and, not face him again in the 2 mile jockey gold cup? They have another excuse, I have spoken to Leonard Lusky who is a nice guy and, represents Penny Chenery and, secretariat and, he said the reason was that they had to stick to the plan and, that plan was now to put secretariat on grass and, they only had so much time left before they put him to stud. I’ve talked to alot of people all over the country and, sure seems like they were ducking prove out. The jockey gold cup would have been the max, for them to show secretariat could win at 2 miles and, finaly prove they could really beat prove out and, he would have had a chance to break the great kelsos’ record of 3:19 1/5 which the great kelso did on a sloppy track. You think keso would have done that even faster? You’re damn right, had that not been a sloppy track. But, they had too much to lose if they took the chance. It wouldn’t have looked good for secretariat to go out with two loses. They avoided prove out like the plague. Funny prove out did 3:20 something at the jockey gold cup which is the secound fastest ever after kelsos’ 3:19 1/5. Maybe secretariat would have had the secound fastest timing for the jgc or he might have broken the great kelsos’ record, I don’t think so. Sure seems like they made up another excuse. Excuses, excuses. I think prove out scared the hell out of secretariat. Atleast the great kelso wasn’t ducking beau purple and, one of the times purple beat him, kelso was giving away 8 pounds to him. Funny it was also Willie Shoemaker in kelsos’ saddle during those loses, who kelsos obviously didn’t like. Funny when Valenzuela came in the great kelso started winning again. Oh and if man of war was on some performance enhanchment drug it wasn’ the same crap secretariat was on 60 years later. Next you’re gonna tell me secretariat was carrying the weight man of war was, right? Atleast kelso looked like a deer, if he was on anything, he sure didn’t look it. Oh, and, I have yet to read or hear anywhere that the great kelso[KING KELLY] was on anything. On the contrary, common sense is when a horse is gelded they lose testosorone don’t they? Oh and, kelso did have his share of getting hurt sometimes. Kelso for a little horse who looked like a deer still carried more of his body weight that forego did who was 17 hands! Kelso carried 12pct. What’s the most weight secretariat ever gave away to another horse compared to kelso? Go look up what handicap means and, why they put weight on horses. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  38. Teddy Lopez says:

    Oh, by the way Mr. Scarborough, the great kelso [KING KELLY] won 8 out of 9 races as a 3 year old. Oh, and, I’m not gonna let you forget that A

  39. Teddy Lopez says:

    caro said that many a time he would hold kelso back and not let him run all out so they wouldn’t put even more weight on him when kelso was 2. So you talk all that bunk about secretariat at 2, huh? You like to believe everything ARCARO said go to you tube and, look up where he talks about kelso as a 2 year old. Secretariat was a protected horse, they knew what they were doing. Go look at kelsos’ dc records againts the best horses in the world and, not just best horse in the u.s and, how he ended up 2nd 3 times after winning horse of the year and, stake races and, still not give up or duck until he finaly won setting a world record. There are race horses in other countries too Randy. Oh and, why do you think lasix is banned in other countrys from horse racing? Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  40. Teddy Lopez says:

    Got some bad news for you Randy, where was secretariats’ big heart when he got his butt kicked 4 times? His having a bigger heart than most horses or any horse was soppose to be an advantage cause he would get more oxygen, but, they have nothing but excuses of why he got his butt kicked 4 times, and, he wasn’t giving away much weight to the other horses, he even got beaten by older horses. I don’t hate secretariat, it wasn’t his fault. Yah hell, no way in hell secretariat was on lasix. Gee, why do they ban lasix in other countries in horse racing. Kelso beat more great horses and, good horses than any other racehorse of all-times, that alone makes him one hell of a candidate for being the greatest racehorse of all-times, never mind all the freaky things he did and, how he carried 12 pct of his body weight. I want you to tell me where the big heart was when secretariat got his butt kicked 4 times. Oh, and, sure seems they avided prove out in the jockey gold cup. Would not have looked good for secretariat to go out with two big loses. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  41. Teddy Lopez says:

    Oh, Randy did you find out yet who prove out was? For a dude that talks all that secretariat jive, I’m really surprised you said you didn’t know who prove out was. I guess it is better for you and, the secretariat fans to block prove out out of your minds! I can’t take you serious, being that you don’t know who prove out was. Let me refresh your memory, prove out was an Allen Jerkins horse who not only kicked secretariats’ butt but, kicked secretariats’ stable mates’ butt too. How can you talk all that stuff and, then have said you had no idea who prove out was. I’m the one who really feels sorry for you. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  42. Teddy Lopez says:

    I’ve got some really bad news for you Randy, only four horses at all have ever won the handicap triple crown which some experts say is even harder than the regular triple crown, and, the great kelso is the only one of the 4 to ever win 3 races carrying over 130 pounds! Make sure you’re sitting down and, have a seat belt on. Kelso also defeated 5 different regular triple crown winners a total of 12 times during his incredible carear! Don’t get a heart attack. He also set a record at the jockey gold cup for 3:19 1/5 on a sloppy track on dirt for 2 miles, than set a record just 11 days later on grass at the dc at 2:23 4/5 on 3 turns at 1 mile and 1 half againts the best horses in the world at age 7, which would be like a human athlete still setting records at over 40 years of age! He is also one of only 3 horses ever to win the woodward, the whitney and, the jockey gold cup the same year! Secretariat never won the woodward or the whitney. As a matter of fact somebody made a comment that secretariat should have stood out of any race that began with a ‘W’. As a matter of fact sec fans talk all that crap about secs’ performance at the belmont being the greatest ever by any racehorse but, the fact is that the only competition he had there was sham and, for some reason sham broke down and, the other two horses were two bums. They still wanna argue that THE 2:24 flat that sec did for the 1 mile and one half on dirt was better than kelsos’ dc performance on grass for 1 mile and a half of 2:23 4/5 because grass is faster as far as what they think. I’ve talked to experts all over the country and, half say it is and, half say it all depends. Well, I got some bad news for you, when kelso did his record at the dc, that was againts the best horses in the world and, not just one real good horse and, two bums! Kelso also did that on 3 turns, sec did belmont on 2 turns. Now if at all grass is faster than dirt, doesn’t that one extra turn the great kelso made send that secound to hell? They claim grass is a secound faster than dirt. To further bury you, secretariat ran on grass twice and, nevr bettered his 2:24 flat at belmont on dirt and, never better kelsos’ 2:23 4/5 on grass which kelso did on 3 turns carrying 126 pounds. Secretariat carried about 5 pounds less on his first grass try than kelso in his last race at canada, your boy was only carrying 119 pounds and, still couldn’t top kelsos’ dc! The hell you talking about, man! Get a life! They talk about like secretariat nevr had to have the whip used on him. Go watch the woodward againts prove out and, see how they were whipping both of them! Secretariat just got his ass kicked by a horse who was giving away 7 pounds to him and, who became the secound horse to ever do the 2 mile jockey gold cup after the great kelso, who set it on a sloppy track at 3:19 1/5! Prove out scared the hell out of secretriat who was a protected horse and whom they have nothing but excuses for his loses. They talk about secretariat having an abcess tooth and, losing some race, well the creeps don’t tell you that sham hit his head againts the gate at the derby in 73′ and, tore out two teeth and, was bleeding when he ended up number 2! Go look that up, Einstein! Sham did end up ahead of secretariat in some race, go look that up. Secretariat lost 5 races as it was and, he wasn’t giving away too much weight to other horses. As a matter of fact the most he gave away was 9 pounds to another horse. Yah, that’s cause he was 3 years old , ah? Seems like they were putting less weight on him when in his last two races he wasn’t carrying even 125 pounds. He carried 119 lbs in his last one. You better wake up and, read how lasix was first used in the 1970s and, how it is illegal in horseracing in other countrys. Kelso retired in 1966 and, who looked like he was on roids more kelso or secretariat? Kelso looked like a deer, genius. I tell you what Dr. Fager would have kicked secretriats’ butt. Fager was carrying heavy weight. Go look up Dr. Fager, he might have had the best 4 year campaign of any race horse, though kelso had a hell of a 4 year too. Secretariat never raved at 4 ah? I don’t think they wanted to be in the same town as prove out again. Nothing but excuses for secretariat ah? Alot of people have been brainwashed into believing secretariat is the greatest racehorse of all-times. Ofcaurse they’ll never admit that he was on roids. Secretariat better thank God he never faced Dr. Fager. I hope you were sitting down and, had your seat belt on. Kelsos’ biggest fan, bigger fan than Cot Campbell Teddy. P:S GO LOOK UP KELSO, take a valium first.

  43. Teddy Lopez says:

    Sure seems like they were putting less weight on secretariat in his last race he carried 117 pounds, I was wrong, not 119 pounds. He carried 119 pounds at the woodward when prove out who carried 126 pounds kicked his butt, big heart and, all. Gee, secretariat never did better kelsos’ 2:23 4/5 for the 1 mile and a half, he couldn’t do it on dirt or the two times he ran on grass, even though sec was carrying less weight on grass than the great kelso! Put that in your pipe and smoke it Randy and, if you don’t smoke, digest that! Kelso was and, is the greatest racehorse of all-times. I just read that he just had that great tactical speed, I read know exactly what that means. He was the most versatile racehorse that ever was or will be. They say he could spin on a dime, and, had great balance. Eddie Arcaro said kelso could run, inside, outside or did go to shit when blocked. As a matter of fact gun bow bumped him in their last race, the one at the dc in 64′ and, kelso still was able to kick his relatives’ butt. Kelso was is in a class by himself. Kelso was the God of racehorses. He even had fan mail! Imagine had Arcaro not held him back sometimes, as a 3 year old, he still won 8 out of 9 races, won the jockey gold cup and, was voted best 3 year old. He became the first horse in 37 years not to win the triple crown but, be voted best 3 year old, even though Eddie use to heold him back sometimes! I keep finding out more incredible things on this horse who looked like a deer. To think he was only 15 hands when he ws 3. Finally rounded out to 16 hands as an adult. He had a 25 foot stride, Man of war and, secretariat and, Forego, ad, Fager all had longer strides, so just hink how kelso could motor! Secretariat was a protected horse, like a protected boxer. They carefuly race him. They knew what they were gona do with him. Kelso was and, is God. Teddy.

    • Liz L. says:

      Hmmm … Secretariat a protected horse? He ran 9 times at two, and 12 times at three. Kelso ran 3 times at two and nine times at three. Secretariat ran as many times his three year old season as Kelso ran his entire first two years. After Secretariat’s initial two allowance wins, he never again raced in allowance races. After Kelso’s initial two Allowance races (which he didn’t win), he was done for the season. Three of his nine races (33%) at three were Allowance races. That means he raced in six stakes races at three, compared to 12 stakes races at three for Secretariat. Of Kelso’s six stakes races at three, one (JCGC) was a grade 1 stakes race. Of Secretariat’s 12 stakes races at three, only two (Gotham and Bay Shore) were NOT grade 1. Kelso lost his first time in stakes company. He only carried 119 in winning the JCGC the first time, seven less than Secretariat carried in the Belmont. In fact, as a three year old, Kelso NEVER carried more than 124 lbs. His average weight carried per race his three year old year, was 118.4 lbs. Secretariat’s average weight carried per race his three year old year was 123.5 lbs. Kelso ran two races against older horses at three. Secretariat ran against older horses 5 times at three. One of Kelso’s races against older horses was a grade 1. All five of Secretariat’s races against older horses were grade 1′s. I think you like to compare apples to oranges, Teddy. I also think you absolutely hate Secretariat. I understand having a favorite and a hero, but I am very unsympathetic toward anyone who detests animals, any animal.

  44. Teddy Lopez says:

    No, Liz you’re wrong, I don’t hate secretariat, he was just a horse who had no say. I dislike the people though who have nothing but excuses for secretariats’ loses and, how they’ll tell you how secretariat lost one of his races because of an abcess tooth but, they won’t tell you of how Sham hit his head againts the gate in the kentucky derby race in the triple crown of 73′ and, tore out two teeth and, was bleeding! They won’t tell you that sham did come out ahead of secretariat in one of their races and, how he really could keep up with him. As a matter of fact, it’s strange how shams’ owner didn’t really say what exactly went wrong with sham when he broke down in the belmont race. I would have liked to seen secretariat do that with prove out had they both been 3 and, Allen Jerkins had been working with prove out. I hate how they ducked prove out in the jockey gold cup. Yes it would have been messed up had secretariat had 3 straight loses. hey don’t tell you how prove out was giving away 7 pounds to secretariat in the woodward but, they make that secretariat was ready for that race, even though they were whipping the shit out of both prove out and, secretariat and, prove out still whupped his butt! They won’t tell you how that was no fluke, that prove out did beat 4 hall of famers in a span of 2 months, I’ll name them for you, secretariat, forego, cougar 2 and, riva ridge. No but, woodward was a fluke! As far as weight and, how many times they raced at 3, kelso and secretariat, did secretariat run in any handicapp races when he was 3? Kelso was a smaller horse than the juiced up secretariat and, also had a shorter stride[25 foot] and, yet look at kelsos’ timings. How much freakin weight was secretariat giving away to the other 3 horses in the belmont race? How mch weight did he ever give away to other horses. Where was the big heart when he got his butt kicked in the woodward race? Where was it when he got his butt kicked 4 times? Oh and, he lost a 5th race cause he bumped another horse which is dirty Liz! Oh and, of the 9 races kelso was in at 3, remember Liz he won 8 of them, not bad at all and, he was voted best 3 year old, first horse to do that in 37 years and, not win the triple crown, he also won the hardest test, the jockey gold cup and, set a damn record doing it. Also came out 2nd that year in his first time on grass and that was againts the best horses in the whole world and, not just againts 1 good horse[sham] and, two bums like secretariat had at belmont! No I don’t hate secretariatI really don’t think he was the greatest racehorse of all-times like some blind people think. Oh and, if you wanna talk weight was secretariat carrying the weight man of war was at age 2 or 3? Man of war was carrying almost 140 pounds at age 2 and, wore iron shoes and, damn right the tracks were in worst conditions than they were when secretariat ran 60 years later. Compare the field in yankees stadium today to when babe ruth played.The true way to test a horse in handicap races and, secretariat didn’t quite like those. I would have liked to seen that big lasix horse carrying and giving away a whole lot more weight, like when kelso became the only horse of the only 4 horses to ever win the handicap triple, carrying over 130 pounds and giving away 20 pounds to the runner up. No Liz, I don’t hate secretariat, I even cryed when I saw his movie, he was only a horse after all and, he had no say in what they did with him including the lasix they gave him. If kelso was on anything, poor horse looked like a damn deer and, he was still kicking alot of the these bigger horses’ asses! If man of war was on anything it wasn’t the same thing they were giving secretariat and, alot of those other horses 60 years later. We’re talking 60 years here, man! Your boy secretariat was carrying 117 pounds in his last race, the one in canada. They put less and, less weight on him. No he, didn’t duck prove out at the jockey gold cup, Yah right! Scary prove out is the secound fastest horse to ever do the 2 miles after the great kelso, when prove out did 3:20 flat. The great kelso did 3:19 1/5 on a sloppy track on dirt then 11 days later set a record on grass againts the best damn horses in ther world what other horse ever set a record on dirt and, then 11 days later set a record on grass and, he was 7 years old which is like a human athlete still setting records at 40 years of age! Again, no Liz, I don’t hate secretariat, he just wasn’t the greatest racehorse of all-times he left alot of questions to be answered and tests to be put in. I don’t hate you neither Liz. As a matter of fact I’ve always had pets at the house and, have 2 cats who are going be 15 years old who I love and, got too damn close to. Oh by the way, they used rabbits in secretariats races, kelso didn’t need a rabbit or blinkers because he might have gotten distracted. Kelso didn’t need that crap. When Dr. Fager got beaten by damascus they used rabbits againts him in both races, they ran him out of gas. Takes away from Dr. Fager even though I think he was a great sprinter. Kelso was good all ways. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  45. Teddy Lopez says:

    I would think you would know more about horse racing than you sound there, Liz. Kelso was gelded so they didn’t have to rush him in the first two years, your boy secretariat they were gonna take out after his 3rd birthday, so that’s gotta be why secretariat was in more races in his first 2 years than kelso. Anyway if you remember what Eddie Arcaro said that at the beginning he would hold kelso back sometimes so they wouldn’t put even more weight on him, so what the hell are you talking about as far as weight with secretariat? He also did that to keep kelso from winning by a larger margin over other horses. Shit, I figure it might have caused kelso to set even a few more records and, have set some more unbelievable timings. Sure seems like they kept secretariat from handicap races. Sure seems like they ducked prove out at the 2 mile jockey gold cup. Scary I’ve spoken to Allen Jerkens and, he was training prove out to run 3 miles. Prove out kicked secretariats’ butt and, secretariats’ stablemates’ butt too riva ridge. No Liz, I don’t hate secretariat, it’s just that there’s too many excuses around secretariat. Secretariat is not the greatest racehorse of all-times. The gelding that looked like a deer and, hardly weighed 1000 pounds proved more than any other horse of all-times. Even Allen Carter at the hall of fame admits kelso did have better compitition than his favorite secretariat did. Kelso proved it all and, didn’t need a rabbit or blinkers. kelso was the biggest money earner of all-times. If secretariat was that great instead of studding him why didn’t leave him race longer. Of the 600 foals he made only 10pct turned out to be any good. It’s not like his anchestors were like kelsos’ anchestors. Kelso came out of man of war. Secretariat didn’t have the genes kelso had. Not many horses have had kelsos’ genes. Kelso was and, is the greatest racehorse of all-times. Kelsos’ passionate and, greatest fan Teddy.

  46. Teddy Lopez says:

    Kelso set a record on two sloppy tracks, when the hell did secretariat do that. Secretariat didn’t even set 1 record on a sloppy track, kelso did twice! Put that in your pipe and, smoke it! Kelso did that on the 2 miles which is the ultimate test for a racehorse! Prove out scared the crap out of secretariat and, they wanted no part of him ever again. Prove out beat 4 hall of famers in a span of 2 months. Wood ward was no freakin fluke, man. Don’t cover the sjy with one hand. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  47. Teddy Lopez says:

    Liz, I’m gonna give you my phone number and, I’m gonna break secretariat down for you. Give me your e-mail address. Secretariat was a juiced up horse. You think they’re gonna admit secretariat was on lasix? They’re never gonna admit to that. Funny lasix came up in the early 1970s. Gee I wonder why it’s freakin banned in other countrys in horse racing? hUM! Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

  48. Teddy Lopez says:

    Gee,, Liz, could it be cause secretariat was gonna be taken out after his 3 year old season that he was in a few more races than kelso who was a gelding and, was gonna be around for a while? Oh and, as far as weight, could it be because like Eddie Arcaro said himself that at the begoning he would hold kelso back sometimes so that they wouldn’t put even more weight on him? Gee, go figure. I would think you know a bit of horse racing, am I right? Let’s also look at how much kelso weighed as a horse which some say was a questionable 1000 pounds and, so let’s look at how much weight the great kelso carried for his body weight, cause he looked like a deer compared to big horses like secretariat and, yet kelso carried all that weight. At the end they put less and, less weight on a big horse like secretariat. In his last race he carried 117 pounds. They knew what they were doing with him. No he wasn’t a protected horse ah? How many handicap races was he in? Are you kidding? I don’t hate secretariat, Liz, but, he was and, is not the greatest racehorse of all-times for certain reasons and, left alot of unaswered questions. He also ducked prove out at the jockey gold cup. Kelsos’ biggest fa, Teddy.

  49. Teddy Lopez says:

    Kelso beat 5 different horses a total of 12 times who had won triple crown races! Scary isn’t it? He is also one of 3 horses to win the jockey gold cup, the woodward and, the whitney in the same year! Yes, kelso was sure something else wasn’t he now. Especially for a horse that at 3 was about 15 hands and weighed maybe 1000 pounds. He reached 16 hands at 4. Kelsos’ not gonna happen again, they don’t even run 2 miles anymore or carry all that weight. Some expert said that these horses today are a bunch of punks compared to kelso and, great horses back then. It’s not the horses’ faults it’s that they take them out after 3 to breed like they did with secretariat. I would have like to seen secretariat giving away weight in handicap races, that’s where the real test comes in. He lost 4 races as it was and, he wasn[‘t giving away much weight to his opponents. Where the hell was the big heart when he got his butt kicked by prove out in ther woodward, hell they were whipping the hell out of both of them! Nothing but, excuses for secretariat. Secretariat is not the greatest racehorse of all-times. Like the experts say the real tests com in when they gotta participate in handicap races. Also how long they rermain great. Secretariat left alot of unaswered questions. Oh, annd, don’t give me tht speculation crap. Again, no, I don’t hate or dislike secretariat, I even saw the movie and, have the movie and, thought it was a good movie. Just that he doesn’t have enough credentials to be hailed as the greatest racehorse of all-times. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.

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