Man o’ War….a “good horse”
Mar 23rd 2012 12:30 pm |
John P. Grier vs. Man O’ War in the 1920 Dwyer Stakes, Aqueduct Race Track. Painting by Frank B. Hoffman
Few questions in horse racing history intrigue me more than the question of who was the greatest American Thoroughbred ever? It is a question far too complex to ever be answered definitively, but it does inspire great conversation.
The conclusion on America’s greatest usually lands on the triumvirate of Secretariat, Citation, and Man o’ War. Living memory, that is people who were alive while a particular horse ran, tends to influence how people divide on this question. The one horse that has outlasted the prejudice of living memory is, of course, Man o’ War.
Perhaps the best evidence of this came in 1999 when he was named the greatest racehorse of the 20th century by the Bloodhorse. No horses in the Bloodhorse’s top ten raced prior to 1940 and only two raced prior to 1950 (Citation and Count Fleet). Needless to say, the top of list overemphasizes the second half of the century with the lone exception of Man o’ War.
The post-mortem ability of Man o’ War to outrun his odds and finish ahead of horses like Secretariat on “racing’s greatest” lists becomes especially intriguing when considering the contemporary opinions of a few race writing powerhouses. Grantland Rice, Walter Vosburgh, and John Hervey — three writers who watched Man o’ War during his career — had opinions about the great race horses that might surprise the modern racing fan.
In Grantland Rice’s outstanding autobiography, The Tumult and the Shouting, he wrote:
“A race horse must be judged in three directions — speed, stamina, and time — the time he lasts. So while we might rate Man o’ War and Citation as the greatest three-year-olds, neither should be classed as the greatest horse. I think that distinction belongs to Exterminator…”
Grantland Rice wrote about many sports so maybe his opinion doesn’t hold as much weight. However, Walter Vosburgh, who spent his entire life in racing and likely watched most (if not all) of Man o’ War’s career races, wouldn’t even go as far as to call him “great.”
According to Walter Vosburgh’s obituary from the New York Times in 1938, he thought Man o’ War a “good horse.” In his long career he only counted three horses as the greatest of the American turf: Sysonsby, Henry of Navarre, and Salvator.
These are opinions of two writers with little in the way of exposition. But, these simple claims are supported by historian John “Salvador” Hervey’s detailed description of why Man o’ War might be undeserving of his status as racing’s greatest.
In a 1924 article for the Daily Racing Form, he laid out a compelling case against Man o’ War. Making a claim that it was a PR machine (still a relatively new concept in 1924) that created the Man o’ War legend.
Here is an excerpt from his article (read it in its entirety at DRF):
Personally. I have always regarded the reputation of Man o’ War as overblown. To the discriminating, the fulsome, and perfervid [intense] ‘bunk’ and ‘hokum’ that have marked his career, from the publicity standpoint, have prejudiced, rather than elevated, his prestige.
“The deluge of superlatives, the flaming headlines proclaiming him the ‘Wonder Horse of All Time,’ and the like, have nauseated many turfmen well competent to judge of greatness. That he was a marvelous racing machine, and a speed marvel as well, nobody for a moment wishes to deny. But the fact remains, and always will remain, that during his career of conquest he never beat a first-class horse, or one even approaching first-class estate, with the sole exception of Sir Barton…
It is doubtful if any modern American thoroughbred ever excited the enthusiasm, or so appealed to the popular imagination, as did Salvator, until Man o’ War appeared. ‘Publicity’ was, in Salvator’s era, an ‘infant industry’ in comparison with what it has since become. The furor that attended him was neither trumped up nor pumped up. Neither his owner nor his trainer cultivated the ‘fourth estate’ for the purpose of reclame [publicity] and the prestige he attained was a spontaneous emotion, due exclusively to the splendor of his performances.
When we recall the enormous vogue that the ‘movie’ of the Man o’ War-Sir Barton ‘match’ enjoyed, and the great factor it was in making the general public of the United States of America acquainted with him, we realize that Salvator’s fame in his day was but a shadow of what such a horse would today achieve. The Man o’ War-Sir Barton ‘picture’ was absolutely destitute of thrills, because there was not a moment of real contest in it…
An absolutely fascinating observation from a racing writing legend, who came to these conclusions just a few years after Man o’ War concluded his career.
The publicity machine that, according to Hervey, created the perception of Man o’ War’s greatness increased in intensity later when he emerged as a successful sire and became a celebrity in his old age at Faraway Farm in Kentucky. In 1947, the horse’s funeral was broadcast over the radio! That alone would convince anyone that he must be the greatest horse to ever look through a bridle, right?
Of course, one could surmise that Hervey, Rice, and Vosburgh were simply taking the well worn path of the contrarian. However, if we take them at their word, three legendary writers didn’t consider Man o’ War the greatest runner of his era, let alone the greatest of all-time. That is a tough piece of evidence to overlook.
SOURCES, NEWS, AND NOTES
“Will Man o’ War Prove a Great Sire,” Daily Racing Form, 18 March 1924
“Walter Vosburgh, Turf Leader, Dies,” New York Times, 12 September 1938
Grantland Rice, The Tumult and the Shouting: My Life in Sport, 1954
Bloodhorse’s Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th Century
John P. Grier vs. Man o’ War in the 1920 Dwyer Stakes
Thanks for reading and good luck!
Filed in thoroughbred racing history
Loved this one, Kevin. Especially happy to see Vosburg considered one of my personal favorites, Henry of Navarre on of the three “greatest of the American turf.” Keep up the great work.
Interesting, as the early 1920′s were the birth of the marketing hype. I always enjoy reading contemporary accounts (written during the time) of famous racers, and realistically, there is a question of “who did he beat?” And the crop was so small, by modern standards. BTW-Man o’ War did not stands at Claiborne (error).
Love your work!
Thanks for the comments and kind words!
The Claiborne error has been fixed…my mistake.
Very interesting, those three contrarian takes on Man o’ War; I especially liked Hervey’s chalking up the MoW hype to the “modern publicity” industry magnified by those new-fangled “movie” pictures. Perfectly valid points and strangely familiar ones, too. ;^)
I also liked “Salvator” Hervey asking if MoW would prove to be a great sire. It rings of the speculation about what Secretariat would throw (and all too often didn’t.)
And how many sportswriters in the pre-blog days took their all-time fave’s name as their own pen-name?
I’d be interested to read of the careers of their own equine heroes. Did Exterminator, Sysonsby, Henry of Navarre or Salvator set new track records as frequently as did Man o’ War? Were their training regimens harder? How did travel affect them?
For that matter, did any of these sportswriters recall “old racing characters” who could themselves recall long-all-but-forgotten greats like Luke Blackburn? Gen. Duke? Hindoo? Or – dare I say his name – Lexington?
Thanks for posting this — interesting perspectives!
I think that often it’s hard for us to separate our own feelings from somewhat subjective questions. John Hervey wrote under the pen name “Salvator” — should it surprise us that he may have resented Man o’ War’s fame overtaking Salvator’s? True that there weren’t newsreels in 1890, or a movie of Salvator’s match race with Tenny. But there were superlative newspaper headlines for him (New York Times: “The Best Race Ever Run”), a widely-seen finish line photo, a popular poem, art prints, postcards (“World’s Fastest Running Horse”) — publicity as it existed circa 1890 and years beyond. Whether or not Salvator’s handlers encouraged such celebrations, versions of what Hervey called “hype” did spread the champion’s fame.
Another perspective: in January 1937, The Blood-Horse magazine began a series of interviews with trainers and jockeys called, “His First Winner, the Best He Ever Saw.” I don’t have every article here but found 17 of them. Within those, there’s a wider range of opinion than modern fans might think: Man o’ War received 7 first place votes, plus one tie with Cavalcade. The next most vaunted horse (among the articles I have here) was Equipoise, with three votes. And now consider this.
Three Man o’ War votes came from people who might feel an especially strong connection with him: Bill Brennan (handled MoW as a yearling, bringing him to Saratoga for auction); George Conway (Glen Riddle stable foreman during MoW’s racing career); and J. Howard Lewis (longtime friend of MoW’s owner, Sam Riddle). One Equipoise vote came from Fred Hopkins, who trained Equipoise for awhile. But Equipoise’s other trainer, Tom Healy, said that Man o’ War was the best racehorse he ever saw. So did Earl Sande, who had ridden MoW in one race and right afterward compared him to “a runaway locomotive.”
But the most interesting thing may be Henry McDaniel’s viewpoint. Quote:
“In his opinion the best horses he trained were Exterminator and *Sun Briar, both of which he trained in one of his three enlistments in the Kilmer colors. He believes Exterminator was the best stayer he ever saw, but thinks *Sun Briar would stay well enough if not made too much use of in the early part of a race. He is firmly of the opinion that Rey del Caredes (Americus), a horse he trained for Lucky Baldwin as a 2-year-old, was the fastest horse he ever had in his charge.
“He also subscribes to the theory, so widely held, that Man o’ War was the best horse that raced in the past 50 years and that Miss Woodford was the best filly.”
It may be hard for a sportswriter, no matter how expert, to trump that.
; >
Hi Dorothy: Thanks so much for your contribution! Certainly a great counterpoint to the quotes that I emphasized. Best, Kevin
I think Kelso was the greatest racehorse of all-tmes and, for many reasons. Alot of people forget to mention the fact the Kelso was a small horse who weighed about 900 ponds and looked like a deer. Being that the great Kelso was a small horse he had shorter than horses like his great grandfather Man of War or Secretariat, who were big horses and had longer legs which is an advantage for the strides. Kelso faced and defeated more great and good horses than both of them put together or than any other racehorse in history. Kelso also set a record on a sloppy track, which Man or War or Secretariat never did or maybe any toher horse ever did, he set a record on dirt and then just 11 days later set a record on grass, which no other horse has ever done! Some people argue that grass is faster than dirt and, when you ask them, how much faster, they tell you about 1 secound faster. Some people will tell you that that’s alot of hoopla because it depends on the condition of the track. There is a thing called turns that always slow horses down in a race, when Secretariat did 2:24 flat for 1 mile and a half on dirt at belmont, he was carrying 126 pounds and did it on 2 turns. Remember Secretariat was a big strong horse so what the hell was 126 pound to him really? Remember he also had longer legs than Kelso, an advantage in covering more ground. Secretariat was 3 when he did this and the only competition he had in that last race of the triple crown was Sham and Sham broke down and then Secretariat had no traffic abhead of him to block him. When Kelso did the 1 mile and a half on grass he was carrying 126 pounds and, did it in 223:4/5 and, mind you did it in 3 turns! Remember, Kelso was a smaller horse than Secretariat and had shorter legs and shorter strides and was covering less ground, Kelso did this againts better competition for it was in the dc international againts the best horse in the world at that time! Kelso was 7 years old when most horses are on their way down. There is a horse called Hawskter, that broke Kelsos’ record for the mile and a half on grass, but here’s the thing, he did it carrying less weight, he was carrying 124 pounds, so to me that record still belongs to the great Kelso. The record for the mile and a half belongs to Kelso on dirt or turf. Just like the rank of the greatest racehorse of all-times belongs to the great King Kellly. There wil never be another Kelso, they don’t even run 2 miles anymore. He holds that record 3 times, in one breaking his own record! Neither Man of War or Secretariat proved all Kelso proved. Kelso didn’t leave no questions unanswered. About the triple crown, which is about the only thin he didn’t get to win. He got a late start but, did win the best 3 year old award and became the first horse ever not to win the triple crown but win the best 3 year old! What might make one think that he didn’t have a chance in hell to win the triole crown had he competed in it? Kelso was the greatest for many reasons, he proved more and beat more great horse than any other horse in history. Long live King Kellys’ memory. Kelso biggest fan, Teddy.
I agree with Teddy’s post re: Kelso. However, in regards to MOW, he was a “good horse” IMHO. The class of 1920 was sub-standard save for John P. Grier.
Exterminator was by far the best, even better than MOW. I truly think that MOW was “hopped” when he ran. Feustel knew about it as did SDR.
Why he didn’t race at four because of Vosburgh’s weight assesment in 1921 was because the horse was beginning to bow tendons.
Phar Lap will always be higher on my echelon than MOW.
But then again, if not for MOW we would not have my beloved Seabiscuit.
I have often noticed that the age a person his when he/she is struck by a great horse tends the color the opinion through the rest of life. I recall the great Jimmy Kilroe writing about great horses back when I was with The Blood-Horse. He had known Equipoise when he was a young man and seemed still to place him higher that most other historians. The most remarkable instance of thisphenomenon that I know of was in1989 I had the pleasure of interviewing Ogden Phipps. He said he thought the best horse he ever saw was Count Fleet, again thinking back to a horse he watched as a much younger man. I thought it was amazing that the breeder and owner of as great a horse as Buckpasser harked back to somone else’s horse as the best he had seen.
By the way, your earlier commenter Dorothy Ours modestly omitted that she is the author of the best book ever written about Man o’ War.
Hi Ed:
Thanks so much for your contribution. Also thanks for pointing out that Dorothy Ours is the author of Man O’ War — I agree 100% with your assessment of her book, a must read for any fan of racing history.
You, sir, modestly omitted your authorship of some great books too! I have copies of Legacies of the Turf and Masters of the Turf close at hand when working on this site.
Thanks again,
Kevin
The editors of the New York Herald set out a feast on the “eternal question” in their Sunday, March 31, 1907 edition — a couple of months before Colin broke his maiden. Sysonby was the most popular selection among the responding horsemen. Walter Vosburgh awards high praise to Henry of Navarre, but note his preamble:
I can give my impressions, but cannot venture an opinion, as I know of no way by which can be determined the relative merits of horses which have appeared in different years separated by a long interval. Such an opinion would be of little value, as it is likely to be based upon prejudice, perhaps unconscious, or perchance an impression which is hardly sufficient basis for an opinion.
In 1973 Preston Burch wrote a Foreward for the third printing of his book Training Thoroughbred Horses. It covered the changes in racing from 1902, when he began as a breeder and trainer to 1973. Mentions many of the greats over that period and some of there accomplisments. “Man o’War, the greatest of all time, won 9 out 0f 10 races at two, $83,325;”
Preston Burch’s opinion I’ll accept.
Totally agree with the distinguished Ed Bowen that Dorothy Our’s book is the best to ever be written on Man o’ War. One of the most scholarly and yet fascinating thoroughbred tomes I’ve had the pleasure to get immersed in.
Oh yeah, Colin’s Ghost rocks.
Kevin, Always enjoy your posts. Dont ever stop. I started playing in 1959 but I have an older cousin who filled me in on the late Forties and Fifties.
He said pretty much the same thing about Native Dancer that is being said here about Man O’ War. Native Dancer was the first “television horse” and he was glamourized because of it. But, according to my cousin, they picked their spots carefully with Native Dancer.
He said Tom Fool, who was more or less a contemporary, was a better horse than Native Dancer.
I must agree that individuals pick personal favorites for best race horse of all time.
Personally, probably because I was born in 1950 and my earliest recollections of horse racing was SWAPS.
So must remind everyone, yes I remember Kelso, great horse
How does SWAPS figure in for anyone else? Swaps broke his own records.
Swaps also was being held back from running ALL OUT to protect his problem hoof, there is one small book written about Swaps.
He will always be my all time stand out because he was my first favorite race horse, and I never SWAP horses in the middle of …
Someone, anyone if you know about Swaps please post, I read that someone timed Secretriat in the Belmont for a mile and 5/8, which broke Swaps record time for a mile and 5/8ths.
I just wanted to say about that post by Ed Bowen, it’s not just about that one would have favoritism for a certain great horse from ones’ time, you have to have facts to back your horse up. There’s alot of facts to Kelso than just me having been a kid back when he raced. As far as Man of war, who was Kelsos’ great grandfather, you gotta rememberr that way back when he raced, the tracks were in worst conditions, the horse shoes were heavier and, the starting gates, hell, there were no starting gates when Man of war raced and, that all that slowed his timings down. I don’t wanna take anything away from him except that they just didn’t race him too long. I still think Kelso was the best ever. If it wasn’t for Man of war though, there would have been no Kelso. So many great horses came out of Man of war, including his triple crown winning son War admiral, seabiquit. count fleet and even gun bow! Oh again and, there was the great horse that looked like a deer, Kelso.
Thank you, Ed! and Kevin! (blush) Excellent point about people often being struck by a certain horse when they are young. I think because Secretariat was the horse who caught me young, as the ’70s unfolded I didn’t love Seattle Slew and Spectacular Bid to the extent that others did — Secretariat already filled that place. Looking back, I appreciate what marvelous horses Slew and Bid were. I’ll just never feel about them quite the way that Secretariat made me feel. And I don’t blame others, coming along at other times, for placing other champions higher. Maybe it’s similar to the way we feel about favorite music we grew up with.
Enjoyed all the viewpoints in this thread, bringing back many thoughts of terrific horses. By the way, Secretariat’s spark is what made me want to really know the horse people compared and contrasted with him most often. So, thanks to one Red, I also fell in love with another!
Interesting opinions, but you seem to forget the myraid of horsemen who were blown away by Man O’ War including: James Rowe Sr. (trainer of Sysonby, Colin, and Hindoo), Willy Knapp (HOF jockey), Earl Sande (HOF jockey), Commander Ross (owner of Sir Barton), Mars Cassidy (race starter), and most of the sports writers of the time.
Miss Ours, your book was amazing!!! So much hard work and meticulous detail went into it; I don’t even know where to begin. I have a question for you: do you know of anyone who saw both Man O’ War and Secretariat and called Man O’ War the greatest horse of all time? It’s a question I have wondered about for a while.
Mr. Bowen: thank you for your help in answering my question! I really respect your work, and your book about Man O’ War was also amazing!!!
Such an honor to be able to communicate with such knowledgable horsemen (and women)!!!
I just want to clear the 1 mile and a half record up. They say secretariat owns the record for the 1 mile and a half on grass, well I got some bad news for the Sec fans, Secretariat did 1 mile and a half on turf which was grass in 2:24 4/5, king kelly[kelso] did the 1 mile and a half on grass in 2:23 4/5 and he did it on 3 turns and was carrying 126 pounds and, mind you all it was againts way better competition than secretariat had when he did it. It was at the dc international, a race in which he had participated in 4 times againts the best darn horses in the whole world and not just in america and, he came out 2nd 3 times and, finally won the last one beating out gun bow by 5 lengths who was no slouch and, was related to him, and setting that record at the age of 7 when most horses are on their way down and out! You could go on and on about kelso, I hope the people that don’t know this one are sitting down. Ok, here it goes, are you sitting down? Only 9 horses have won the jockey gold cup twice in its’ 87 year history, are you sitting down, the great kelso did it 5 times! Oh, and, it was 5 years in a row, in which he won horse of the year 5 times and became the only horse to ever do that! Remember, kelso was a little horse who looked like a deer who had to be gelded because of his behavior and that even after they gelded him he still wasn’t the nicest horse! There’s never been a horse like kelso and there never will be, kelso beat younger horses, older horses and, could sprint go the distance, where he holds the 2 mile record 3 times, in the last one breaking his own record! You could say, kelso was ahead of his time[laugh]! It is safe to say that kelso beat more great horse and good horse than any other racehorse of all-times. That alone makes a case for his being the greatest racehorse of all-times. Somebody said they oughta make a movie about him. Once upon a time there was a horse named ‘kelso’ but, only once. Kelso biggest fan.
Just want to say for Kelso, that they put Kelso againts his greatgrandfather, Man of war in a computor simulated race and, they got the great Kelso beating his greatgrandfather by half a lengh. Eddie Arcaro who wrote both Citation and Kelso said Kelso was the greatest horse he ever rode. So they better start changing that Blood horse top 4 list. Oh, and, you know how I feel about secretariat, secretariat lost 5 races never carrying more than 126 pounds, and prove out kicked his butt fair and, square giving away 7 pounds to sec, they never raced prove out again. Kelso should top that blood horse top 100 list as the greatest racehorse of all-times. I have more respect for Dr. Fager than for secretariat. Look at the weight Fager carried setting some records. Forego is also a horse I have alot of respects for cause he was hurt most of his carear. Prove out could have been one of the true greats but, was hurt alot. He has the secound fastest two miles after the great kelso. Those who think prove out was a fluke should look up his story and bio. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.
Gee Teddy I want to think you for your post about Kelso. Are you aware that Eddie Arcaro one of Kelso rider said in a interview with Bill Christine that he rated Secretariat the best he has ever seen? He told Ron Turcotte that and has on other occassions said Secretariat was the fastest horse he ever seen and that goes back to Phar Lap.I wonder who were the other old time turfmen who told Arcaro that every one he talked to that seen both Man 0′ War and Secretariat said Secretariat better. This is what he said according to Turcotte. I don’t guess Secretariat or Man 0′ War did the things Kelso did but guess you can’t if you don’t run after 3yrs. of age. Thats a no brainer I would think. Remember Kelso broke most of his records as a older horse. Didn’t Hatton, Hudges, Casale, Hamburger Schwartz and George Cassidy placed Secretariat better than Man 0′ War and Kelso. These turfmen seen them all. Other than that you posted a Hummdiggner.
Oh brother. A lot of people have resentments. I am sure the Secretariat hypers are resentful of Curlin, or Seattle Slew. They are about Man O’ War. Just like Salvator’s fans were resentful of Man O’ War. Man O’ War was the greatest horse on American turf..period. He did everything ever asked of him and he did in a way no horse ever has. Ready Ms. Dorothys book if you want proof.
If people want to bring up Exterminator great do it. Why on earth did Exterminators owner DODGE the Kenilworth Gold Cup when both Red and Sir Barton were going to be there? Kilmer was invited to bring Exterminator to that show and he ran from it. THink about it.
If you want to bring up phony Red aka Secretariat do it. That horse was a great one but greatest? He lost four races he should have won. He never carried the weight Man O’ War did as a two year old and the fact he lost easily won races proves he wasn’t as good. How does he get beat by a horse named Onion? Prove Out? his maiden when he came in fourth and was disqualified for interference in the Champange stakes. Man O’ War? Lost one…questionable loss.
When Red ran he wore iron plates instead of aluminium shoes, the tracks were slower than they were in the fifties and sixties and today and of course can anyone here imagine a two year old carrying 130 pounds now days? Man O’ War’s only failing was the selfishness of his owner as far as breeding rights. The only horse we have now with a direct male line back to Big Red is Tiznow and thats too bad. Man O’ War descendents have proved to be fast, durable and athletic.
Citation was a better horse than the ones running now days. Native Dancer was to. We had better horses back then. But anyone putting Secretariat whom I have questions about as far as steroids goes ahead of Man O” War is a fool. The horse died of a disease that horses get from periodic steroid use. How does an animal never hurt, never unsound a day in his life get laminitus? Think about it.
Gee, Randy, Eddie Arcaro also said kelso was the best horse at any age, so where the hell are we? Go read Jim Squires’ book on how secretariat was juiced up on steroids. I’ll name the steriod for you, ‘lasic’. Look at all the weight kelso carried for a horse that looked like a deer! Man of war was better than secretariat. Go look at for example how they say sec broke man of wars’ record for the 1 mile and 1/16. The jive turkeys don’t tell you that man of war was carrying 138 pounds to secretariats’ 126 pounds , man of war did 2 secounds slower. You think 12 pounds don’t matter? The tracks were in worst conditions when man of war raced and the horse shoes were made of steel compared to aluminim when secretariat raced and, there were noi starting gates when mow raced. Secretariat is not the greatest racehorse of all-times. That’s between Man or war and his great grandson Kelso. They put kelso in a computor race with mow and they had kelso winning by half a length. I’s a tuff comparison I think. Kelso was mind boggling for a horse that looked like a deer. Look at when he set a record on dirt for 2 miles on a sloppy track then set a record on grass in the dc againts the best horses in the world, just 11 days later. Where the hell is secretariat there? Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.
Lasix is not a steroid. It is a diuretic used to prevent bleeding from the nostrils during a race when blood pressure increases. For horses that suffer from this, it can be quite debilitating to good performance. There is absolutely no evidence that Secretariat ever used Lasix, or suffered from bleeding. Lasix was tested for at most tracks at which he raced. Furthermore, bleeding tends to be an heritable trait, and no evidence any of his offspring (or predecessors) were bleeders.
I enjoyed most of the comments here as very informative, and providing interesting counterpoints, one to another! I tend to agree with the comments that we see the most merit in the horses with whom we have some sort of compelling connection.
I wanted to share a little experiment I have conducted, where I sought to find out what the actual benefit to modern day horses is from track improvements, if there is any. I thought that if there were a real benefit from track improvements, we should see a relatively shallow slope (time/year) on one side of the improvement, a relatively shallow slope on the other side of the improvement, and a precipitous drop when we get to the year of the improvement. Since individual horses times can vary so much year to year, I averaged each decade’s worth of times, and chose stakes races that stayed on the same track, attracted the same grade of horses, were run for many decades and did not change distance within those many decades. Even with decades averaged, if there were a significant benefit to track improvements, there should still be a shallow slope on one side of the improvements, a shallow slope on the other, and an obvious drop correlating to the decade of the improvement. What I found, instead, was a fairly consistent decrease in slope w.r.t. time before and after track improvements. It is not at all obvious to me that track improvements have done anything more than improve “off” conditions, i.e., give us fewer “off” days and off tracks that are easier to run on. It seems fast tracks are quite comparable.
Thank you so much for your forum!
Hey, Liz, what makes you think secretariat wasn’t juiced up as hell with that big appetite he had and, how he died at a young age for a horse, at 19 and, he died of laminitis which a desease horses on roids die of? Why the hell when they compare the records secretariat broke of man of war, they don’t mention the weight they were carrying? It’s alot of bullcrap to me. Like when man of war did the 1 mile and 1/16 he was carrying 138 pounds and, was wearing iron shoes which would slow him down, compared to secretariat who wore aluminum shoes, the tracks were in worst conditions back in man of wars’ time and there were no starting gates. Secretariat was carrying no more than 126 pounds, that’s 12 pounds less, the hell, 12 pounds don’t matter? Secretariat did it about 2 secounds faster, now if you take all the disadvantages man of war had, who was the real better horse? Who you kidding, man? Now let’s take that the stuff secretariat was on, if man of war was on any roids at all, it wasn’t the crap secretariat was on. Oh, and, kelso looked like a deer, so if kelso was on the juice at all, he sure didn’t darn look it. I f prove out holds the secound fastest 2 miles aftet the great kelso, what makes you think kelso wouldn’t have whupped secretariats’ behind if prove out did. Oh and, I’m not gonna let you forget prove out was carrying 7 pounds more than secretariat. Look what happened to big brown when they took him off the roids. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it now? Oh, and, as far as secretariats’ big heart, what happened to the big heart when he got his butt kicked 5 times? Excuses, excuses right? Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.
Hi Teddy. “Juicing” is very doubtful. If you look at pictures of Secretariat from babyhood on, he had a lot of muscle and a very thick neck. Look at pictures of Bold Lad (another Bold Ruler) as a two year old, and there are many anatomical and muscular similarities. Giving anabolic steroids to a foal is practically a formula for disaster, and the most determined cheater would certainly avoid it. There is absolutely no connection between “juicing” and laminitis. I am not sure who has been telling you that. Furthermore, Secretariat developed laminitis at age 19, 16 years after he retired. That dog won’t hunt. What is far more likely is insulin resistance, a condition prevalent in humans, dogs and horses, but not well-known until recently. Secretariat had gained weight toward the end of his life, and this was likely the cause of his laminitis.
Your arguments about the heavier shoes and the slower tracks are simply not borne out by the data. There is no dramatic decrease in race times from one decade to the next, rather a steady, consistent drop from decade to decade (until recently, when they have actually started to get slower again). If the faster times now are due to faster tracks and better shoes, then why were times during Man O’ War’s day faster than they were the decade before he ran? And why are average times now slower than they were in the 70′s and 80′s? Did the tracks get slower again? Perhaps the shoes or saddles are heavier now? I, personally, think Man O’ War and Kelso were great horses. It would be foolish to argue against that! But please don’t make baseless accusations against Secretariat, because he was also a great horse, and Kelso doesn’t need you to sully Secretariat’s image.
What purpose did Colin achieve here? What was the point? Was he thinking EVERYONE would say oh yea, Man O’ War was like okay but Secretariat was Horse of the Century or something? Colin didn’t get that. And, while I’m late to the party, I really enjoyed reading the comments. Finally, people are fair. Finally I see that people actually think there are horses greater than Secretariat. But, as a person who feels Man O’ War is the greatest, let me just say that all the points from the Man O’ War fans were valid and appreciated. Let’s look at Man O’ War vs other horses. There is a lot of talk about starting gates and slower tracks and heavier shoes, all valid points, however, Man O’ War DID carry 130 pounds at 2 UNHEARD of in later years. Man O’ War didn’t have the competition of Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, but he did run against stakes horses, horses that beat greats of the past. Man O’ War did NOT duck Exterminator as someone pointed out AND, now Secretariat fans brace yourselfs, Man O’ War won all but 2 races EASILY, Under STOUT pulls, handily, etc., never RIDDEN OUT like Secretariat. He carried weight at 3, Secretariat did not, except for the 126 pounds that all 3 year olds have to carry at times. Every argument Secretariat fans make, can be used to describe other horses. I also think Count Fleet was the 2nd best horse. If Count Fleet had been “ridden out” for a record, think of how much faster his Belmont would have been. His last quarter was faster according to the DRF chart and what’s the deal with 25 lengths being ho hum and 31 lengths being the second coming? Let me quote an article I read “The racing king of the present season is Man O’ War the great 3 year old who makes a specialty of breaking all previous records. So far ahead of all other horses is he that it can almost be said “there is no second”. None of his competition has been able to make him extend himself and it is still a question as to how fast he really could run if he were hard pressed. Okay, John P. Grier, Secretariat lost to Prove Out! Which brings up another point Man O’ War smashed records and EIGHT of them altogether. Oh, there is so much I could continue with, but I think without a doubt, Man O’ War is the Horse of the Century, deservingly so.
Since I won’t be the only one leaving more than one message (and it was a privilege to actually read a comment from Mr. Bowen) let me just say that Secretariat fans LOVE to talk about the people that saw both Man O ‘War (the first Big Red and didn’t take any other horses nickname) and Secretariat and say that Secretariat was better, well there are some that think Man O ‘War is better. I love when they forget to admit that in their articles. Plus Man O ‘War’s record at SARATOGA WAS better. But, Secretariat gets the better race record accolades because he was so purdy and popular.
Tell the secretariat fans to mention how much weight secretariat was carrying in comparison to man of war. They won’t do that. Man of war was one hell of a horse. To me it’s between man of war and his great grandson kelso of who is the greatest racehorse of all-times. Yo wanna really get the secretariat fans, tell them to compare secretariats’ belmont victory when he was competting againts one really good horse sham, who broke down, and two horse who were really bums compared to all-time greats. Tell them to go look at kelsos’ 1964 dc performance which is againts the best freakin horses in the world and, how he st the record at 2:23 4/5 in three turns and, how just 11 days before that he broke his own record for the 2 miles ‘on a slopy track’!!! Oh kelso was 7 years old when he did that. Talk about a freak horse! Man, we’re never gonna see another horse like kelso again. These horses today don’t even run 2 miles anymore. They don’t carry all that weight anymore neither. Kelso proved it all. When he became only the 4th horse to win the handicapp triple crown he was giving away 20 pounds to the runner up! Oh, yah right, secretariat wasn’t on roids. Atleast kelso looked like a damn deer and, he was still carrying all that weight for a little horse. 13 of the 30 or 31 stake races he won, kelso was giving away 17 pounds to the runner up! My, God what kind of horse was this? Greatest horse is between kelso and his great grandfather man of war. It’s hard to argue againts kelso with all he did. Just that kelso beat more great and good horses than any other racehorse of all-times, makes him one hell of a candidate for the greatest racehorse of all-tmes. He also ended up secound three years in a row and finally won which again is againts the best horse in the world! Yes isn’t kelso scary. You have to be sitting down to digest some of kelsos’ heroics. Kelsos’ biggest fan, Teddy.
Teddy Kelso was a great horse, but it is comparing apples to oranges to compare him and Secretariat, IMO. Comparing 2 year old and 3 year old Secretariat to 2 & 3 year old Kelso, Secretariat is the winner, hands down. And there is no point in comparing the 4,5,or 6 year old Kelso to 3 year old Secretariat. Kelso was a great horse. Secretariat was a great horse.
The whole steroid thing is really reaching on your part. For one thing, Jim Squires is hardly a reputable source. He offers no proof, and only wishes to enhance his own reputation by tearing down others. I have a Thoroughbred gelding who has been retired for a year and a half, absolutely no drugs entering his system, and he eats, well, like a horse. You really think that a horse having a hefty appetite is proof of steroid use? I wonder where that expression came from, anyway. Must have been all of the horses were juicing way back when, hmmm? And when all is said and done about steroids, Penn State actually conducted a study that found absolutely NO benefit to horses’ performance in giving them anabolic steroids. It did change their personalities (they became more aggressive), which made their owners think they were improved, but their muscle fibers and actual performances were unchanged.
If you believe Kelso to be best, be confident in that. No need to sling mud.
Man O War’s steady 28ft. stride has yet to be matched. And the line that he was never matched with great horses? Nobody would LET their horses race him, fearing embarrassment. Those who know the facts know the horse, and the truth.